Frozen Dirt

[sherpa]

My neighbor called me to landscape the dirt around his pond. He had his pond dug out a couple weeks ago when it was very cold. Its been nice and warm 55 degrees here in NC for the past 3 days. As I approached the pond berm I lowered my bucket to push a path through the dirt, BAMM. It was like hitting cement! The dirt out of the pond had water mixed in it when the trackhoe brought it out 2 weeks ago and it was all still frozen. It was just like cement all the way around the pond. My backhoe would not even break it lose. I thought I could dig down 6 inches and it would be thawed. That was not the case it was even frozen harder. I thought to myself, what do you folks do in colder climates this time of the year if you want to dig in dirt?
sherpa

 

[ronjhall]

Get a bigger BH or wait until it thaws. /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
There are several drain projects being done near me. The size of Backhoes they are using is about double the size that would be used in months without frost.

 

[dicker]

I agree with the last comment. In some communities in northern Ontario, burials are put off until the spring.
Richard

 

[dbelisle]

One thing that helps up here in the north is the snow.
If we don't get to much cold weather before it snows, the snow will insulate the ground so the frost will not go very deep.

I have seen winters when the snow came early and you do not have any frost under the snow. But when you start digging you better do it fast because in a day or two you could have a couple feet of frost. Then it is like ronjhall said,
you move in the bigger equipment, or a thawsall machine.

It used to be constuction stopped up here in the winter. But with the new equipment thats out there, it goes year round now.

Either way, this time of year, it starts to get expensive

Then like
Dave in NH

 

[RickB]

The guys that value their equipment park it.

 

[KirkMcD]

There are also systems for thawing out the ground.

Timberland Ground Thawing

 

[sherpa]

Thanks, it good to know. I have dug all over these mountains with my little hoe without problems. I think I will save my stuff and do it later!
Sherpa

 

[RoyJackson]

I doubt if you'll want to do this, but...

Years ago, when I was a plumber's apprentice, we'd use a jack hammer to break up the frozen ground on top. The backhoe, a full sized Ford, wouldn't break the frozen ground at all...all I did was lift the rear end of the machine. This was for digging sewer tranches, BTW.

Although you felt the ground below the top was frozen more, it probably wasn't since earth is a pretty good insulator.

Once you break through the top 6"-10", your backhoe should be able to dig. You may have to break up more with your bucket teeth as you go.

 

[sherpa]

The problem is the dirt came out of the pond with water mixed in it. Then it got very very cold here. Now that berm around the pond is just like cement, its unreal! I am not having any problems at other sites. I just dug a bank off that same morning for another neighbor without any problems at all.
Sherpa

 

[Egon]

Large iron and a work schedule that never lets the ground freeze once you break the crust and get started.

Equipment such as backhoes that have a jack hammer attchment for doing sewer or water lines in the winter.

Landscaping frozen dirt is a waste of time as you just have to redo it come warm and dry weather.

Unless the job is essential a comfortable chair placed in front of a warm fire and a good book in hand are much less stressfull!

Egon : /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[thcri]

There is lots of things you can do to get the dirt broken up. However if it was me I would just park it until spring. Once you break up the dirt you have to deal with these large chunks that you won't be able to break up. Like one other poster said, park it. You will do more damage to your equipment than it is worth, unless you got one of them big back hoes that is designed for it.

murph

 

[keeney]

I asked my excavating contractor about digging during thw winter because I wanted to get my garage done last winter instead of waiting until spring.

He quoted a price that was about 4x:

1. He would need to bring larger equipment that bills at a higher hourly rate.

2. He ups his hourly rate by 50% to rip frost to help offset the wear and tear on the equipment.

3. It would probably still take about twice as long.


On top of the 4x digging charge, he said I would probably want to haul away the spoils and haul in sand to do the backfilling because there is no good way to put the big chunks of frozen dirt back in the hole without it being about 50% too much dirt to fit, and it will settle like crazy when it thaws.

I waited until spring.

- Rick

 

[sherpa]

This is new information for me. I learn something on this site every day. I am glad I get to dig all year round, (except when someone puts wet dirt on the ground in the middle of a big freeze).
Sherpa

 

[longway5]

I once watched a foundation hole being dug in the middle of winter. It was just for a house, but they had two excavators on site. One was a full-sized John Deere 792 (I think) with the bucket removed and a large, single ripper in its place, to tear up the frost. The other was a mid-sized Cat, actually digging the hole.
These past few winters, its been very cold up in Maine, and I can remember hearing of water mains 10' down breaking due to the frost. Little snow and cold temps makes for deep frost

 

[sherpa]

I can remember hearing of water mains 10' down breaking due to the frost.

Man O man, I cant believe that! We just have to go down about 12-15 inches here with a water line. How do you live in such a cold climate? I would go crazy!
Sherpa

 

[ksmmoto]

Hello,

In Michigan we have just two seasons, Construction and Winter!

I would wait till it thaws, frozen ground will eat your equipment.

I like warm weather better, but I wouldn't be able to stay inside and get my fix of tractor forums! Often have wondered how people in the south can stand to stay inside. It was 45 degrees here on 12/31 and I was out all day! It had been around 0 to 20 degrees for three weeks.

ksmmoto

 

[keeney]

It was freezing rain / sleet here today - a nice warm day in MN for this time of year!

Lots of people out on the lake fishing, skating, snowmobiling.

Of course, the lake is the only place you can snowmobile - we have not had any snow yet!

Without the snow, the frost is sure to go deep again this year just like last year when it was easily 5' deep.

- Rick

 

[thcri]

Yeah even the ease spouts are full of ice and looks like water damns all over the place again. Driveway has a good slope to it but is glare ice. Right now I would be afraid to take my tractor down as I don't think I would get it back up to easy. Concrete and ice don't make a good mix even with R4's. Took a drive and found out most of the plows were taken off the road as they could not keep sand/salt ahead of the rain.

murph

 

[Tom4310]

I know this is going to sound crazy but you can thaw the ground out. A friend of mine does the burials here in NE Oregon and has to thaw the ground before he digs. He built a metal pan that is a little bigger than the size of the grave. It is just like a big drip pan but about 6" deep. He flips it over (bottom up/opening down) over the area to dig. Hooks up a propane weed burner to a hole in one end and lets it burn overnight. Thaws the ground enough to get down past the 1-2' of frozen ground. Put a couple strips of pink ceiling insulation over the top to hold in the heat. Didn't believe my self until I helped him one day.

 

[dicker]

Good morning Tom4310

Sounds like a neat idea. However, the community of which I was referring, actually had more reasons than just the frost to postpone burials until the spring. Huge snowfalls made locating plots difficult and I believe they learned first hand by burying someone in the wrong location.
Richard