From vertical to horizontal - proposed engine swap!?

[NormL]

At the outset of my mini-backhoe build I knew that at some point the tired old 18hp Briggs would have to go. I had hoped to get at least ten or more hours of digging in first. That was not to be as outlined in the thread I had going during the build "It's time, either get started or..." So I'm starting a new one for the purpose of gleaning the great advice TBNers have for those of us who tend to operate "by the seat of our pants" in projects like I am facing. Like my title suggests, the engine coming out is a vertical shaft model. It is original with the tractor, a mid-eighties Sears Craftsman. That means there is not enough clearance between the end of the output shaft where the drive pulley for the mower deck it used to have is, and the ground, to direct-mount a hydraulic pump. The belt drive I tried instead has failed miserably. The belt slips the moment I try digging. I have a thirteen hp horizontal shaft engine I can mount in that space and this where I am hoping anyone who has done this will step up with helpful hints, tips and "encouragement?"..

 

[WranglerX]

A hydraulic pump should not care if its mounted vertically or horizontally as long as it can get suction from reservoir.... There are housings to adapt pump to motor and use love joy connector from motor shaft to pump shaft....

Hydraulics - Hydraulic Pumps - Hydraulic Pump Mounts - Surplus Center

www.surpluscenter.com

Shaft Couplers | Power Transmission | www.surpluscenter.com

Shaft Couplers,Keyed, Splined , Hex 1 Piece Solid Couplers,3 Piece Flexible Jaw Couplers,Snap Hitch Adapters,PTO Adapters,Chain Couplers

www.surpluscenter.com

 

[oldnslo]

Norm
Something to check is the bearings style on your pump . Some pumps are designed to handle side load on the shaft from belts and others are not.

on belt drive use a double pulley system to increase power transfer. Belts should be matched length for doing this though.

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

Norm
Something to check is the bearings style on your pump . Some pumps are designed to handle side load on the shaft from belts and others are not.

on belt drive use a double pulley system to increase power transfer. Belts should be matched length for doing this t

Belts can be bought in matched sets.

 

[NormL]

A hydraulic pump should not care if its mounted vertically or horizontally as long as it can get suction from reservoir.... There are housings to adapt pump to motor and use love joy connector from motor shaft to pump shaft....

Hydraulics - Hydraulic Pumps - Hydraulic Pump Mounts - Surplus Center

www.surpluscenter.com

Shaft Couplers | Power Transmission | www.surpluscenter.com

Shaft Couplers,Keyed, Splined , Hex 1 Piece Solid Couplers,3 Piece Flexible Jaw Couplers,Snap Hitch Adapters,PTO Adapters,Chain Couplers

www.surpluscenter.com

Thank you for those tips! At present, the pump is mounted vertically like the engine and driven by belt from a five inch B pulley to a ten inch B pulley. It has been suggested that switching to a double belt setup would help and I'm sure it would. The issues involved make that impractical. There is only so much "wiggle room" under the tractor and at my age my "wiggle" is more like "wobble"!! The pump functions well till the belt slips under load. As for mounting the pump directly, I will shop locally at Princess Auto for the mounting gear. If they don't have it, I'm not averse to fabricating my own.

 

[NormL]

Norm
Something to check is the bearings style on your pump . Some pumps are designed to handle side load on the shaft from belts and others are not.

on belt drive use a double pulley system to increase power transfer. Belts should be matched length for doing this though.

You are right about side load and my pump will not allow it. My present mount takes that into account so it is in good shape for mounting directly. I'll have to open it up and change the rotation back to factory before I do that!! The biggest problem I see to double belt the present setup is the way the pulley on the engine is mounted to the output shaft. It looks like it was on there from the factory and intended to be permanently attached. Keep in mind this is a garden tractor that came with a mower deck and the pulley I have been using to run the pump was the drive pulley to that deck.

 

[NormL]

Belts can be bought in matched sets.

And if going that route was an option I would make sure I was using a matched pair!! My walk-behind snow blower is a good example of the importance of double belts being matched. I bought a set that supposedly matched; they did not and I had to toss them and buy another set. Grrr....

 

[ROUSTABOUT]

If belts are slipping you need bigger pulleys or more belts, or even both. Small pulleys dont have much contact area to transfer power. You can swap engines days on end. I swapped engines and the belt still slips...

 

[workinonit]

I would use gear pulleys and belt.

 

[NormL]

If belts are slipping you need bigger pulleys or more belts, or even both. Small pulleys dont have much contact area to transfer power. You can swap engines days on end. I swapped engines and the belt still slips...

The only belt after the engine swap will be the one to the trans axle which is not a problem. The engine in there now is vertically oriented and the one going in is horizontally oriented which leaves plenty of room to mount the pump directly onto the output shaft. The biggest issues will be redirecting the drive belt to the trans axle from a below the engine platform pulley to an above the platform pulley. The most likely scenario is to cut an opening into the platform once I am sure of exactly where the replacement engine will stand and then reposition the various pulleys along the way between engine and trans axle. This includes the clutch pulleys and at least one additional idler to align the belt in relation with the new opening.

 

[NormL]

I would use gear pulleys and belt.

My curiosity is piqued; what's a "gear pulley"?

 

[FastEddieR]

how about toothed belts and matching pulleys? Or ribbed, more surface area to avoid slippage.

 

[workinonit]

Like this with a cogged belt. I once worked for Dayco that makes these and all types of belts. Basically they are zero slip. I suppose they can jump a tooth but not common.

 

[NormL]

View attachment 714067
Like this with a cogged belt. I once worked for Dayco that makes these and all types of belts. Basically they are zero slip. I suppose they can jump a tooth but not common.

OK!! That is the kind of drive setup I have on my bandsaw. The belt shredded and I've not been able to locate a new one for it. Good thing my SIL lives next door and he's got a much better saw I can borrow when needed. I can see that working in my situation but since I have the engine to swap in to replace the old one, I'm going that route. Cost is a big factor here and has been throughout the project. I will, however, keep the gear pulley in mind for any future project where belt slippage could be a problem. Thank you for this!!

 

[dstig1]

Yeah a toothed belt like a timing belt or a chain drive would both give you much more positive engagement and should eliminate the slippage. I know you said cost is a big issue, but if it remains non-functional then it costs you 100% of what you have into it for zero return...

 

[lennyzx11]

A timing chain and gear set from a small block Chevy is cheap and could be welded to the pulleys you have. Maybe a six cylinder set for longer length?
They are 2:1 ratio like you have. And can withstand high rpms.

I was going to say roller chain from Tractor supply but I think that’s rated a lot lower rpm than what you want for a hyd pump to spin at.

 

[lennyzx11]

You are right about side load and my pump will not allow it. My present mount takes that into account so it is in good shape for mounting directly. I'll have to open it up and change the rotation back to factory before I do that!! The biggest problem I see to double belt the present setup is the way the pulley on the engine is mounted to the output shaft. It looks like it was on there from the factory and intended to be permanently attached. Keep in mind this is a garden tractor that came with a mower deck and the pulley I have been using to run the pump was the drive pulley to that deck.

You state you are using a belt drive but your pump doesn’t allow side load.

How is this possible (no side load) with a belt drive setup if I may ask?

 

[NormL]

You state you are using a belt drive but your pump doesn’t allow side load.

How is this possible (no side load) with a belt drive setup if I may ask?

Good question and I did it by mounting the drive shaft for the pump through two pillow blocks. The ten inch pulley at one end and a lovejoy set at the pump end. The bracket holding the pillow blocks also holds the pump. Lots of careful fabricating involved but that part of my build turned out well. The slippage was at the pulley off the engine and no amount of belt tightening was helping. BTW, those pulleys are the cheap stamped sheetmetal type and I suspect are part of the problem.

 

[NormL]

Okay, here's where the project stands so far: old engine out, horizontal shaft engine standing approximately where it will get bolted down. Next will be removing the hydraulic pump and all the mounting bits described in the above post. I'll not toss them too far; they are sure to be useful somewhere else, perhaps as part of the bracket to hold the pump in its next position!! The scariest part of all is getting the clutch pulleys and other idlers properly repositioned below the engine platform. There simply is not a lot of room for mistakes down there!!

 

[NormL]

Okay, here's where the project stands so far: old engine out, horizontal shaft engine standing approximately where it will get bolted down. Next will be removing the hydraulic pump and all the mounting bits described in the above post. I'll not toss them too far; they are sure to be useful somewhere else, perhaps as part of the bracket to hold the pump in its next position!! The scariest part of all is getting the clutch pulleys and other idlers properly repositioned below the engine platform. There simply is not a lot of room for mistakes down there!!

It took me eleven days of a few hours here and there to complete the conversion and try it out!! The difference in the performance is like night and day. The engine actually has to grunt when I give it work. And I made it work today. The ground I'm digging is drought dry and hard and this poor little digger is barely able to shovel even a shallow trench. I'm trenching from my pond back to a sump I have some fifty feet out so I can bury the discharge pipe. That's just one of the tasks I have had waiting for this machine. The transplant has been a success as now I'm able to finally use this machine.