Found a coyote, I think

[Raspy]

Jesse,

We will be ready to do that, if we still have her, when she begins to display dangerous behaviors. She doesn't have to kill to survive here and she is being raised by a terrier and us. At this point she is just over 3 months old.

I'm sure you know more about coyotes than I do, but your experience seems to be only related to hunting them in the wild. You see them in a situation where they have to kill for a living and they are afraid of you. This may be different.

I'm looking for the differences between hardwired behaviors and intelligence driven behaviors. Since she was raised from about three days old by us, she has had no training from other coyotes. Some definite differences between her and wild coyotes are that she knows us, has formed habits around living with us, wants to play games with us, clearly sees us as her pack, bonded with my wife at a few days old and trusts us.

So we'll see, and I'll report back with my findings, but at this point, I'm not willing to classify her as a killing machine who is after our pets.

We have also been told by several experts that letting her go in the wild is a death sentence unless she can hunt. That strange coyotes are likely to be killed by other ones and that females don't leave the pack until about eight months old. She will be a stranger with no pack and unable to breed until about a year old, at least. She is also not savvy about the ways of the wild and has less fear of humans than other coyotes. If she saw a human and was hungry, she would likely approach and be misunderstood as sick. That would lead to getting shot.

I know there are some risks involved. But I also know coyotes are reviled for reasons that are not necessarily fair or right. Government programs designed to reduce their numbers have had the opposite effect. Too many people are looking for something to shoot at and will use them for target practice. These same folks might have domestic dogs living in their homes. As I asked in a previous post, what are the differences between domestic and wild dogs? Each can display the other's behavior and they both understand each other completely. They are both dogs from the canis family. How could you care about one and not the other, or at least be a bit curious?

Don't mistake my comments about hunting them as a gun rant of some kind, it's not. I have guns and like to shoot. I just don't shoot animals for fun. I also understand completely why farmers and others would shoot them to protect livestock.

It might be nice if it was really as simple as you say and recommend, but it's not. Once we brought her home, nearly frozen and abandoned, we decided to help her and give her a chance. We realized it would be an interesting opportunity for us as well. We have learned a tremendous amount from her and have grown to love her as anyone might with a domestic dog. She is very interesting and fun to have around, and also difficult at times. There is a lot more to her than I imagined. She is truly an intelligent being with a ton of personality.

 

[RobertBrown]

Here are a few more pix of Sandy.

She's seems to be considerably larger than Bei bei now (It just occurred to me that my dog 's name is bebe, she's 14 years old and is as spry as a pup, my pride and joy
Who is the girl in the red shorts? Looks like she is being held up for a drink of water......

I'm sure you know more about coyotes than I do, but your experience seems to be only related to hunting them in the wild. You see them in a situation where they have to kill for a living and they are afraid of you. This may be different.

I think you know a lot more about coyotes than most of us now John :thumbsup: at least when it comes to young females....female coyotes :2cents:

 

[RandyBell]

John: Glad to see an update. Sandy sure is growing, I'm glad there have not been any problems. As for the breeding of pure breeds nature is a lot more selective than man ever thought about being, in the wild packs will only allow select ones to breed to keep bad traits and in breeding out of the picture. Pure bred domestics are not as selective and alot more in-bred than one would like to think. I have found that mixed breed (mutts) are generally healthier than Purebreds, which Sandy with her natural selection of breeding will be alot more healthy. I have noticed in the pics that Sandy still considers BeiBei the Alpha in her pack!
Hopefully you are getting some work done on the new house. I know with work and animals that we have here it is tough to get to everything when you want to.

Stay cool and have fun

Randy

 

[Raspy]

Randy,

I agree with you on the inbred purebreds. My favorites are mutts for personality and health. With Sandy I'm seeing a whole new meaning of pure bred.

Bei Bei is still clearly the alpha dog here. Sandy is a kid that is always pushing the limits and she crosses the line frequently. I'm in a dilemma because I want to study her and I want to control her actions where needed. In some ways she sees me as the pack leader, but she is also independent or stubborn and hard to control. Think of her as an active and confident little kid that will tease her parents. Since her actions have been good natured so far, I am more inclined to observe and interact, than control. Her keep-away game is a good example. She causes some trouble, but is so funny it that I just have to laugh. Her wolf kisses are another. I know I should not be allowing her to do it, but it's how she expresses herself and I'm not training her with a long term view. She also can express many emotions and levels of intention through her mouth, so eliminating that avenue of communication would be a loss for both of us.


Robert,

The bucket that Sandy is stretching to reach into is the one used to bring roadkill home. Whenever Sandy sees that bucket she is all over it. The girl in the picture is my wife Liye. She had just parked and was walking back to the house when Sandy intercepted her and took the rabbit right out of the bucket.

We've now also found she doesn't like squirrels. Found on the road like rabbits and brought home, they get ignored or taken away and left somewhere.

Sandy is very cautious or wary around other animals she hasn't met, or new people that come to visit. Loud noises scare her. But when she is not scared, with her pack and having fun, she is a handful. When she wants to play or wants a rabbit or wants a treat or wants a toy or whatever, she is relentless. Her level of intensity goes up and her willingness to be corrected goes down. A better way to look at it is she is enthusiastic and alive. Full of energy. Lost in the game and unaware of the consequences. A happy little kid. At those times it becomes hard to stop her from doing things that we don't want her to. I finally grab the back of her neck and pull her to the ground while saying NO!. Maybe this happens a few times until she gets it. No hitting and no extended anger, just a quick response while she is actually doing the thing. Then she will move on to something else and she doesn't become afraid of me because of the correction.

Her keep-away game involves a deliberate challenge. She wants to be chased. She tries to hurry up and get the item before I can get to her. It's all about speed, interacting, chasing, hiding and challenging. She analyses my moves as she watches at an angle while trying to get the item and leave. Very funny and sometimes annoying. Today she was running off with light bulbs and then tools I was using. While I was changing the oil on my truck she kept coming by to grab a wrench, then my flashlight, than a rag. Then she wanted the cap for the oil tank and walked into the oil. I could not shoo her away long enough to get done. And I could not be mad at the playful little dog.

 

[rswyan]

John,

Great thread - keep the reports coming.

We apparently have a pair of coyotes that have denned on the edge of our backyard in an old groundhog burrow .... they have two pups ....

I'm not all that excited about having them around (we have two cats .... that we are now trying to turn into house cats - they haven't been out in about a week) .... but it is fun watching the pups play ....

 

[RobertBrown]

Today she was running off with light bulbs and then tools I was using. While I was changing the oil on my truck she kept coming by to grab a wrench, then my flashlight, than a rag. Then she wanted the cap for the oil tank and walked into the oil. I could not shoo her away long enough to get done. And I could not be mad at the playful little dog.

My dog would do a similar thing as an adolescent. She didn't play the keep away so much but would take what ever you set down and carry it over to "her" spot and admire it for while. If I was unable to find tool or a lug nut, I would go there to find it. It would be there with some other treasures I hadn't realized were missing. She doesn't do that anymore.
I find it interesting that these dogs of mine love vegetables. I don't recall ever knowing dogs that would fight over carrots or cantaloupe. Broccoli, rutabagas, corn on the cob, potatoes, even romaine lettuce are considered a real treat(all served uncooked).
You may want to offer Sandy a small piece of uncooked carrot and see if she will eat it.

 

[rswyan]

I find it interesting that these dogs of mine love vegetables. I don't recall ever knowing dogs that would fight over carrots or cantaloupe. Broccoli, rutabagas, corn on the cob, potatoes, even romaine lettuce are considered a real treat(all served uncooked).

When our kids were young we got them a pair of beagles - brother and sister - "Bitsy" (she was the runt of the litter) would eat wild raspberries when we took her with us on berry gathering forays ....

She would even try to rear up on her hind legs to get the ones she couldn't reach on all fours ....

 

[s219]

Heck, one of our cats is crazy about nuts, especially pistachios. He'll eat them as long as I plunk them down in front of him. Another loves mushrooms, as we found out when she "plucked" them all off the top of a pizza while we were in the other room watching a game. Animals crack me up sometimes.

 

[k0ua]

Heck, one of our cats is crazy about nuts, especially pistachios. He'll eat them as long as I plunk them down in front of him. Another loves mushrooms, as we found out when she "plucked" them all off the top of a pizza while we were in the other room watching a game. Animals crack me up sometimes.

We used to have a cat that would kill or die to get some of that campbells white bean soup. He would be all over you, begging for some of that soup until you ladled out a little bit in a bowl on the floor. Of course most cats will want some ham or something like that, but he is the only one that I ever saw that really liked that bean soup.

James K0UA

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Sorry if this has been suggested; didn't have time to read each and every post, but my first thought looking at her picture was that she was a coy-dog (a cross). I don't think that wild canines take readily to humans, unless they have been selectively bred for that characteristic. When I was about 5 years old, we were given a coyote pup that didn't even have its eyes open. It managed to bite me the next day, as I tried to play with it like a puppy. My Dad, a man who was not one to mess around, settled the matter with great finality that evening when I told him.

 

[Combustix]

Yea I keep coming back to this thread to see when the post about how things have gone side ways is going to be posted. You now have a wild animal that is not afraid of humans. I hope all goes well for you, but I don't see the happy ending in this experiment.

 

[scrappy isb67]

My dog would do a similar thing as an adolescent. She didn't play the keep away so much but would take what ever you set down and carry it over to "her" spot and admire it for while. If I was unable to find tool or a lug nut, I would go there to find it. It would be there with some other treasures I hadn't realized were missing. She doesn't do that anymore.
I find it interesting that these dogs of mine love vegetables. I don't recall ever knowing dogs that would fight over carrots or cantaloupe. Broccoli, rutabagas, corn on the cob, potatoes, even romaine lettuce are considered a real treat(all served uncooked).
You may want to offer Sandy a small piece of uncooked carrot and see if she will eat it.

the german shorthair we had when I was in HS would go out the cornfield, get herself an ear of corn, shuck it and eat the corn off the cob! it was interesting watching her do all this! she always had dogfood but I am guessing she needed what the corn had. the dogs I have now will eat ANYTHING!

 

[Iplayfarmer]

...As I asked in a previous post, what are the differences between domestic and wild dogs? Each can display the other's behavior and they both understand each other completely. They are both dogs from the canis family. How could you care about one and not the other, or at least be a bit curious?

I've been waiting to read more discussion about your question, but there have been few replies. I'm no expert, but I'll take a stab at it to hopefully keep the discussion going.

For me, the discussion doesn't even have to be about domestic vs. wild dogs. The discussion could very easily be about domestic vs. domestic dogs. I have two dogs, and I love them. I also have a neighbor with dogs, and I really don't like his dogs. It comes down to this... My dogs have been trained and have adapted to fit my lifestyle. His dogs do not fit my lifestyle. When I call a dog I expect that dog to come RIGHT NOW. His dogs are very undisciplined. He calls and blows his whistle and the dogs completely ignore him. He'll laugh and make up some excuse about how carefree and wonderful his dogs are, but the reality is that he simply can't control them. One of his dogs has killed a chicken of mine, and the other dog has killed a sheep of mine. The only reason the sheep killer is still alive is because the sheep and dog were both on his property (I was grazing my sheep on his pasture to keep the weeds down for him). The chicken killer is simply not welcome on my property. The neighbor comes often and we visit, but he knows better than to bring his dogs.

To the original point, a dog doesn't have to be wild to be a nuisance or dangerous. If a domestic dog can't learn the rules of living with people that dog will soon be unwelcome. The same goes for wild animals. They are very welcome in the wild, but if they can't learn to respect people they are soon not welcome near people.

I love what you are doing, Raspy. I think that your adventure is helping all of us understand and see coyotes differently than we did before. I also love that it's you doing it and not me. What you call wolf kisses I call biting. What you call a fun game of keep away, I call stealing my stuff. I don't have a lot of extra pairs of shoes that I can let an animal chew on. I don't even like having a puppy. I endure the puppy stage so that I can get a good, useful dog in the end.

I'm not asking anyone to be like me, but I'm trying to answer the question why someone could love one kind of dog and not another. The simple answer is that it's not the life I have chosen. I love my life, and I have carefully chosen the life I have. I have chosen to have dogs that are well behaved. I have chosen to have chickens and sheep that I want to keep. I have chosen to be able to leave a project incomplete without worrying that my tools or parts will come up missing in some hidden den somewhere. I have chosen to not have to worry about who sees my pet because keeping her and transporting her is against the law.

You've been so good, Raspy, to let us into your life and into your heart to understand why you are doing what you are doing. This has been my attempt at letting you into my heart to understand why I would not do what you are doing.

 

[Raspy]

Iplay,

Nice response and thank you. I see where you are coming from and I appreciate that.

My questions don't revolve around trained or disciplined dogs. They are about what a natural dog is and does. Dogs in the wild vs domestic dogs that are not trained to follow human rules. And we can't train out all bad behaviors even from the most docile domestic dogs. So just what is the difference? How close are they to being the same? How can we find out? Who knows that we can ask?

I have dogs too, and they are trained. I am more curious about Sandy and who she naturally is. We are also training her within reason and her abilities. This training not only makes her more sociable, but makes her safer, as it would any dog. However, I am not working on a long term plan to make her a house pet or a working dog. I am curious as to what she does and who she is and if she can be a good citizen in our world instead of a "killing machine". The most important lesson from this is can a wild dog be domestic?

If I introduce her to humans and take the need to kill to eat problem away, how will she react? The opposite could be done to domestic dogs, I suppose. Nearly starve them and throw them in with a litter of coyotes at 3 days old and see what you get. Probably a wary hunter that is afraid of humans. Even domestic dogs that live in homes can pack up and kill deer or threaten neighbors.

So the question about loving one and not the other is bigger than the ability to love them because they are highly disciplined. It's a question about the species as a whole. Some are "wild' And some are "domestic. They have fascinating natural traits and personalities and methods and needs. These show intelligence and intention. Those things bring about respect or dislike from us. The important thing to me in this case is, are "domestic" dogs different than "wild coyotes" and, if so, how and why. Can we work with those differences or are they too dangerous or stupid or unfriendly or messy or impossible to train, etc. Before we can know these things we have to see who they are in a similar setting and take away the circumstances that would make ANY dog act wild and crazy.

Remember too, I fell into this situation and we only acted to save a dying infant nearly frozen and abandoned in the desert. Later we began to realize what we had and what we had taken on. I'm not a trained behaviorist, I don't have approved facilities, the experiment can end at any time, etc. But, I am also curious, resourceful and care about dogs on a level that doesn't require them to pay their way. I know that I will never answer any of these questions adequately by learning from hearsay or myth. Many so called experts have completely differing opinions. I am ready to take action if the whole deal goes south at any time. And I keep going because, at this point, Sandy is a fine little animal that has a lot of energy and a good nature. She's interesting. She fits in and is not dangerous.

My other dogs are under control all the time and are not allowed to inconvenience anyone.

And finally, my curiosity and my satisfaction in this endeavor doesn't hinge on Sandy's ability to strictly be a good citizen and not inconvenience me by playing keep-away. Her ability to have a sense of humor, want to play with me in the morning, give very warm greetings, demonstrate submission, demonstrate ownership, develop strategies to accomplish what she wants and her ability to learn our schedule and fit herself into a natural setting here, is VERY important in learning who she is and who coyotes might be. Training is important and a lot of it is going on that doesn't necessarily pertain to normal working dog or domestic dog habits. I have limited her normal training because she may not be here long. I cut her some slack with some behaviors that should not turn into habits in the long run.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Iplay,

Nice response and thank you. I see where you are coming from and I appreciate that.

My questions don't revolve around trained or disciplined dogs. They are about what a natural dog is and does. Dogs in the wild vs domestic dogs that are not trained to follow human rules. And we can't train out all bad behaviors even from the most docile domestic dogs. So just what is the difference? How close are they to being the same? How can we find out? Who knows that we can ask?

I have dogs too, and they are trained. I am more curious about Sandy and who she naturally is. We are also training her within reason and her abilities. This training not only makes her more sociable, but makes her safer, as it would any dog. However, I am not working on a long term plan to make her a house pet or a working dog. I am curious as to what she does and who she is and if she can be a good citizen in our world instead of a "killing machine". The most important lesson from this is can a wild dog be domestic?

If I introduce her to humans and take the need to kill to eat problem away, how will she react? The opposite could be done to domestic dogs, I suppose. Nearly starve them and throw them in with a litter of coyotes at 3 days old and see what you get. Probably a wary hunter that is afraid of humans. Even domestic dogs that live in homes can pack up and kill deer or threaten neighbors.

So the question about loving one and not the other is bigger than the ability to love them because they are highly disciplined. It's a question about the species as a whole. Some are "wild' And some are "domestic. They have fascinating natural traits and personalities and methods and needs. These show intelligence and intention. Those things bring about respect or dislike from us. The important thing to me in this case is, are "domestic" dogs different than "wild coyotes" and, if so, how and why. Can we work with those differences or are they too dangerous or stupid or unfriendly or messy or impossible to train, etc. Before we can know these things we have to see who they are in a similar setting and take away the circumstances that would make ANY dog act wild and crazy.

Remember too, I fell into this situation and we only acted to save a dying infant nearly frozen and abandoned in the desert. Later we began to realize what we had and what we had taken on. I'm not a trained behaviorist, I don't have approved facilities, the experiment can end at any time, etc. But, I am also curious, resourceful and care about dogs on a level that doesn't require them to pay their way. I know that I will never answer any of these questions adequately by learning from hearsay or myth. Many so called experts have completely differing opinions. I am ready to take action if the whole deal goes south at any time. And I keep going because, at this point, Sandy is a fine little animal that has a lot of energy and a good nature. She's interesting. She fits in and is not dangerous.

My other dogs are under control all the time and are not allowed to inconvenience anyone.

And finally, my curiosity and my satisfaction in this endeavor doesn't hinge on Sandy's ability to strictly be a good citizen and not inconvenience me by playing keep-away. Her ability to have a sense of humor, want to play with me in the morning, give very warm greetings, demonstrate submission, demonstrate ownership, develop strategies to accomplish what she wants and her ability to learn our schedule and fit herself into a natural setting here, is VERY important in learning who she is and who coyotes might be. Training is important and a lot of it is going on that doesn't necessarily pertain to normal working dog or domestic dog habits. I have limited her normal training because she may not be here long. I cut her some slack with some behaviors that should not turn into habits in the long run.

Check out this video; you can also continue your research into "Russian Fox Experiments" that will be somewhat enlightening and may answer some of your questions. Having a rudimentary knowledge of these experiments is what prompted me to opine that your animal might be a "coy-dog", or a cross with a domestic dog because of her uncharacteristic social behavior.


The Silver Fox Experiment - YouTube

 

[EE_Bota]

Check out this video; you can also continue your research into "Russian Fox Experiments" that will be somewhat enlightening and may answer some of your questions. Having a rudimentary knowledge of these experiments is what prompted me to opine that your animal might be a "coy-dog", or a cross with a domestic dog because of her uncharacteristic social behavior.


The Silver Fox Experiment - YouTube

I wonder if 50 generations of intense pressure is enough to have the foxes look where humans point yet. Probably not. Many of the herders etc. know how to herd right out of the box.

 

[BMod]

Check out this video; you can also continue your research into "Russian Fox Experiments" that will be somewhat enlightening and may answer some of your questions. Having a rudimentary knowledge of these experiments is what prompted me to opine that your animal might be a "coy-dog", or a cross with a domestic dog because of her uncharacteristic social behavior.


The Silver Fox Experiment - YouTube

Thank you for that video, it was very entertaining. Food for thought, as they say. I was surprised also that Sandy is so tame. Very interesting, I am learning a lot about dogs and coyotes, and I myself have 7 dogs. Every dog is different, as are humans. Every dog has a different personality also. My 7 dogs are all so different even though some are of the same breed. Keep up the Sandy updates I look forward to new info every few days..............Brian