Foton 404 StarterTrouble

[Hickory Creek]

Long story short: EX's now gone new friend installed a new solonoid on the starter pictured.



Starter does not disengauge all the way after engine fires up. After taking it off, I get a measurement of about 1&7/32" from flywheel to end of bellhousing where starter mates to. When I pulled it off, it was obvious that the starter gear was to far out and staying engauged. I could hear it and feel the starter and tell it was spinning while engine running. The gear does have some play in it, see below. My question is, should there be enough spring action to retract starter gear all the way back to clear flywheel, OR IS THERE MORE THAN ONE SOLONOID FOR THIS STARTER which would have a shorter throw?
Double Click on thumb to play short video.Takes a feww seconds to load and can be replayed.

Engine

Thanks

 

[greg_g]

The signs of partial engagement you see is "normal" wear & tear due to low voltage at the solenoid. Chinese tractors are not known for their quality wiring, so many pinion gears look like this. It takes quite a few amps to throw that pinion gear into the ring gear. Poor wiring often delivers low voltage to the solenoid. When resistance is unchanged, low voltage equates to low amperage. Measure the DC voltage between the small wire on the solenoid and ground as the starter is cranking. My guess is that it'll read down in the neighborhood of 8 volts or so. It wants/needs the full 12v to do its job properly. My solution to this issue is the addition of an expensive starter relay and some 10AWG wire. The upgrade has been discussed in this forum quite often, so you should be able to read up on it with the site search engine.

//greg//

 

[Rich Waugh]

I believe Greg meant to say an "inexpensive" starter relay.

 

[Affordable]

Some of the soleniods have adjustments on them for the throw, I know the QD100C3 starters do, I would bet theis one does also, if not you may be able to shim it out a little

Tommy
Affordable Tractor Sales
"Your Jinma Parts Superstore"
Home of compact Jinma, Foton, and Koyker Tractors and Parts, Wood Chippers, Backhoes - Affordable Tractor Sales Company

 

[Diamondpilot]

I worked on a Foton 404 with the same issue last summer. New solenoid, new starter, another new starter. No fix.

Ended up being a flywheel that was wobbling around in the bell housing due to the bolts backing out. Tractor had to be split, clutch removed, and repairs made.

To confirm your flywheel is true rotate the motor with a wrech while measuring the clearance between the bell housing and the flywheel face.

Chris

 

[sd455dan]

Something doesn't sound right with reference to the pinion being retracted-
most starters with external solenoids have a spring that forces retraction of the pinion as soon as power is removed from the solenoid (start terminal)...

I get what Greg is saying but believe low voltage would cause a start engagement problem, as soon as the engine speed exceeds the starters own rotational speed, the over running clutch in the pinion should allow the spring in the solenoid to retract the pinion...

Someone didn't forget to reinstall that spring ... Did they ??

There is also a pivot pin that the pinion actuator rotates on, generally retained by a circlip -make sure it is intact also..

It is also possible during assembly- to miss the pins that positively control engage / dissengagment of the pinion assembly - such that the solenoid can only push and not retract it

this could also make it impossible to push the pinion back into its at rest position. that picture makes it pretty obvious that the pinion is not fully retracted ... I would look closer at how it was assembled good luck

 

[sd455dan]

I respectfully have to disagree, The first sentence of Hickory Creek says it all- Starter does not disengage all the way after the engine fires up.
It takes 0 volts at the start terminal or main power terminal to fully retract a correctly assembled starter.
Also if his electrical system was not supplying sufficient voltage and current- it is likely that the engine would not start do to insufficient cranking speed ..

The pinion should be fully retracted with no electrical connections hooked up and the starter sitting on a bench.


It is very likely that the solenoid was not assembled to the starter housing with the U shaped pinion actuater in the pinion grove or the spring is broken or missing from the solenoid.

I would not remount that starter until the reason the pinion is not fully retracted is found and fixed...

 

[greg_g]

My bad. I completely missed the "dis-" prefix, and jumped straight into the much more common issue of incomplete engagement. Inaccurate responses have been deleted.

//greg//

 

[sd455dan]

No problem, I have misread a post or two myself. Hopefully the OP can get the new friend to re check starter / solenoid assembly- and set it up so that the pinion is in the correct location when it's at rest .

 

[Hickory Creek]

Think I found the problem. I think the return spring is slipping past plunger lip and causing plunger not to retract starter gear all the way. See damage to plunger and how spring will slip in picture and video below. Thanks for all the help. Click photo to enlarge. Click on video to play. By the way, that is a new solenoid plunger with less than 4 minutes run time on it.

 

[sd455dan]

That looks wrong , in the sense that the plunger end should have a shoulder or lip ( something) to keep the spring from sliding past the end of the plunger like it is...

I think you have found the root of the problem - it might help to have an exploded view of that starter, is it possible a piece is missing??

 

[Hickory Creek]

See post above and click on picture of plunger. It appears it self distructed somehow. I dressed up the damage and tried the spring which failed in my opinion. Just ordered a new solenoid from Affordable(Harold-great service).. I am coming behind someone who put a new sonenoid on this tractor and never cranked it. When I jumped it off, I knew right away that the starter was still spinning and probably engauged at the flywheel. Heck, I'll post some picture for you. What you see is about 4 minutes of run time. Click on pictures.

 

[sd455dan]

OK- after looking at those last two close ups it would appear the shoulder that keeps the spring from sliding past has been damaged and worn down , and the spring is sliding over the end which should NEVER happen

hopefully the new solenoid includes a new plunger and spring The above statement about the solenoid having just been replaced- worries me that when the solenoid is ordered - that they are only supplying the outer electromagnet structure and internal power transfer switch- just like some american replacement solenoids, In reality the only parts you need are the spring and especially the core/plunger...

If the new solenoid includes the plunger/core and spring

Re assemble, and everything should work great. Might want to check the starters operation on the bench before remounting it- especially that the starter drive is pulled back into its parked position after power testing it. Good Job :thumbsup:

 

[Hickory Creek]

I followed someone else on this and they did get the whole solenoid. I just ordered a new one from a Affordable and will make sure the throw length and retuen is sufficient to clear flywheel before I install it. Thanks for the imput.

 

[Hickory Creek]

This post may save some people a headache. Starter problem fixed. I will try to post pictures of original QD143 starter, the replacement solenoid for it which did not work,QD1315A and the new replacement starter QDJ1408, plus one more drawing. What was happening with the first replacement solenoid someone else ordered and put on, was that the plunger was to big for inside throw space. It was just hitting the side and chewing off the lip that holds the return spring. This happened during engaugement. I ordered a new solenoid through Affordable and upon arrival, I could tell that it was to big for the opening it was supppose to travel through. It hit bottom as soon as I hand fitted it. Pictures enclosed of how far original would go in vs. replacement. Had to get a whole new starter. Click on each to enlarge. Start a beginning of thread to see plungers and damage due to wrong size.





Could not find replacement plunger picture where it sat at top of throw space and would not move through full range do to lip being to large.