ford 4500 tractor, not sure if my starter is up to par

[somanytractors]

My 4500 is really hard to start when its cold {not warmed up}. It's like 60 here and it is really hard to start unless its warmed up.
The intake heater is working but its still not enough.
The starter is turning the motor at about 200 rpms. I'm not sure how fast it should be turning but I'm really wondering if I should replace the starter.

Does anyone know how fast it should be spinning?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
John

 

[jaydee325]

Verify you have a good battery first. Fully charge it (greater than 12.6 rested volts) and then load test it.

 

[Agvg]

Well, does it smoke when you try to start it? Any blowby?

 

[somanytractors]

New battery and cables. Fully charged. I could probably crank on it for half an hour.

It does give off puffs of smoke, and it will slowly pick up speed and eventually start. I just have to keep cranking it.
Shouldn't be any blowby. The rings are new.
Should it start ok cold at 200 rpms? Just seems really slow to me but I'm no diesel expert.

 

[rangerfredbob]

My brother has a few Ford 4XXX tractors (3 4000's and a 4600) with the 201CI engine and all start easy with car batteries instead of the full size battery they are supposed to have, even near freezing. Are you giving the governor a little above idle? Starting at idle might not be enough. I'm not familiar with everything on all the models and the 7000, 8600 and 9000 he has don't start easy but on those they have a button at the pivot of the kill lever on the fuel pump, push the button and it gives extra fuel for starting, those 3 start right up with that button pressed, but are cranky or need a spritz of starting fluid if you don't hit the button...

 

[Agvg]

Checked timing?

 

[somanytractors]

I have not checked the timing and it's probably off.
When I got the tractor, the motor, starter, and injector pump pistons were froze up from sitting.
I tore the starter apart twice before it started working ok.
I got the pump working and put it back on about where it was but never really set it correctly.

I'll check it before I try to start it again. That could very well be the problem.

Thanks

 

[RickB]

Set the injection pump at zero at the pump mounting flange. Think about a new starter. Guys with the gear reduction starters really like them, I have no experience with them. A 4500 with good compression should roll over and start without any aid down to at least freezing. Thermostart should get you started down to near zero with some complaining.

 

[somanytractors]

I just looked at it. The pump is set at 2.
I'll try playing with the timing tomorrow, and probably a few days after that. Once it starts I cant do anything with it. It's only the first start in the morning that's a problem.
After that it starts right up every time.

I didn't know diesels went that slow. I just realized, I may need to turn down the idle speed too. It idles about 600-800. That's why I thought it should turn faster for starting.
It could be flooding if it's getting fuel for 800 rpms but turning 200

I think I'm going to tinker with it a bit more before replacing the starter.

Thanks everyone for your help.
I'll let you know how it plays out.

 

[RickB]

Diesels don't flood. Leave the low idle setting alone. Cranking speed does not translate in any way to idle speed and I would not trust your mechanical tach to be sufficiently accurate at the low end of the scale to be a useful indicator of cranking speed.
Having to go into that starter twice to make it work at all plus your comment about low cranking speed picking up after cranking for a while make me suspicious of your starter if you have a new battery and cables. What gauge cables are they? Time the pump first then go from there.

 

[somanytractors]

The wires are 2 gauge.
I moved the pump to 0. I'll see how it starts in the morning.
The starter was pretty messed up when I got it. It was froze up and full of burnt crud.
I think they kept trying to make it turn while it was froze up.

 

[RickB]

Well I won't get too wound up about 2 gauge cables, at least they aren't 4 gauge. I'd use 1 gauge or bigger myself. Let us know if the pump timing helps.

 

[somanytractors]

It started a lot better set at 0.
But now the starter is getting worse. Most of the time the solenoid engages but the motor does nothing.
And sometimes the motor slows down while cranking and then speeds back up.
I'm done with this starter. Time to put a new one on it.

 

[RickB]

Good call.

 

[somanytractors]

update
New starter didn't help.
And now the problem has changed. Even hot it doesn't like to start, and it's always idled rough. Still runs great at normal speeds.
I'm convinced its a fuel problem.
I dumped the fuel and put in fresh but it didnt make a difference.
I'm going to put in an electric pump and see if that helps.
If not, I'm not sure. Probably check the injectors. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't working right. I would imagine they would make it hard to start.
Only thing left is the pump.

 

[CoyPatton]

Any chance the fuel you dumped contained water?
It concerns me that you could have a diesel algae issue. If so you need to clean the entire fuel system, from the tank to the injectors. If you can get it started, there are additives that should do a good job on the tank and injector pump. Poor spray pattern on the injectors may require more attention. Also plan to replace the fuel filter a couple of times.

 

[somanytractors]

I don't think there was any issues with the tank, just really old fuel. It wasn't thick or gummed up or anything.

For whatever reason, yesterday morning it decided to start right up without either, and again this morning. I did use the intake heater. I don't think it will start without the heater but I don't really know. Maybe it did just need some fresh fuel.
I think Im going to run it a bit and get everything loosened up. I haven't run it much at all so I'm going to work it some and see if that helps.
I haven't installed the electric pump yet because I've just been too busy but I still might do that. I'm probably going to go ahead and check the compression too as I want to check the injectors make sure they are spraying correctly anyway.
I really dont think theres an issue with the compression but it only takes a minute to check it and then I'll know for sure. I wouldn't be surprised if there is an issue with the injectors.
It really runs pretty good once it starts except for not liking to idle but I think that was even better today.

 

[MutantGenepool]

Starter motors work or they don't usually. Check the injectors.

 

[CoyPatton]

Starter motors work or they don't usually. Check the injectors.

Starters are like small electric motors and have lots of parts that have to work together to do its job.
I have seen starters that spin but do not engage the flywheel (not working) but sounds like it is fine. Likewise I have seen starters that have internal troubles that will engage the flywheel but not spin (not working).
I have also seen starters that have gotten week and will not spin the engine fast enough to fire, but are ‘working’
I have also seen battery cables that will not carry the needed amperage, but carry just enough to engage the starter and barely turn the engine, often with continued load, these cables start to smoke. Often this is labeled as a starter issue, but really is not.
So works are doesn’t dies not mean it is healthy.

 

[somanytractors]

I'm pretty sure its a fuel issue. I replaced the starter a few weeks ago but the new one worked several times and then screwed up and wouldn't stop till I disconnected the cable from the battery. Then after taping it a few times it worked again for a few starts and then screwed up again. Anyway, I didn't see any real difference with the new starter. I did replace the solenoid on the original starter. It works great now, and spins about the same as the new one did. I dont think its a compression issue because compression doesn't usually come and go either you have compression or you don't unless you have a valve issue, but it's never backfired even once, and sometimes it doesn't even want to start when hot. To me this is all pointing to some sort of fuel issue. I'm still going to check the compression while the injectors are out but I expect to find that it's fine.