Ford 1715 PTO Clutch Adjusment -- Help

[JC-jetro]

Hey Audo,

That ORC does not look bad at all , of course it is difficult to judge the metallurgy from a picture. I wondered if it is a cast piece or machined. External ORC is good but again it is not at all a protection against the shock load. I'd like the idea of slip clutch but they tend to be bulky and pricey and you might have to shorten your pto shaft as well. I always use the lightest shear pin that I can buy. I buy grade two 3/8" bolts from TSC and they are pretty cheap. I rather change out them than damaging the innards. I looked but was not able to find an" external PTO shaft coupler with a shear pin" just for added security. That might be slightly better option than slip clutch. I do have slip clutch on my tiller and shear pin on my brush hog. Looking forward to see the rest of the pictures.

JC,

 

[audoguy]

OK, I have not posted pics because my digital camera is broken, but here are some off of my (not so great) cell phone camera. THe tractor is now in grey primer as I decided to repaint. I'll try to snap some pics of that later. These are from earlier in the process.....

More pics later (probably on a new thread).


Audo

 

[JC-jetro]

Hey Audo,

Great pics as I was pretty interested to see the relationship of PTO counter shaft, pto main shaft along with the sliding gear for pto engagement. Boy , your camera sure picked the right time to die. Even the best PDA/cell phone camera has a lot to be desired. Did you see any paper type gasket between the diffy case and the transmission case. What did you use there? looking forward to see the rest of the pics.

Thanks,
JC,

 

[audoguy]

JC, et al.

As you are a help to so many around here let me see if I can suit your fancy. The attached should show you all you ever wanted to see about the rear end of a TC1715 complete with labels and my chincy power flow diagram

I think there is sufficient resolution with the labels to make heads and tails of how it all works.

There were only two paper gaskets I ran into. One was on the transmission cover plate with the oild level dipstick the other was on the hydro return line / filter holder connecting it to the rear diff. (I think the hydro return is different on your machine so this one may not make sense...)

I just used the RTV that said it was for automotive rear ends. I know those get hot and have a similar environment... Besides, it was blue and matched the tractor. he he he....

More pics to come post-paint.

Audo

 

[JC-jetro]

Yes sir.. exactly as I saw it as well. This ought to help many with a mental picture of how things go.

JC,

P.S , reservation was expressed about use of RTV gasket material in another post. I so far have not had any issues with RTV, anytime I cleaned mating surfaces well, degreased , applied a uniform bead of caulk and let the RTV skin a bit before jointing the pieces together.

 

[fltem06]

Permatex "Ultra Copper" RTV is a high temp & oil resistent silicone. I agree, the blue color matches the tractor, but if there's going to be contact with oil, grease, and high temps...this is your RTV of choice.

 

[mmcheney]

I think I have the same problem with the ORC described in this thread. I have a 1995 Ford 1715 with 1500 hours on it. It was originally used on a golf course and they used the tractor primarily to move dirt with the front end loader and grade with the box blade. They stated they did not use any implements requiring the PTO drive. My brother-in-law works there so I'm certain they are telling the truth. I just purchased a 4' Woods rotary mower to cut my property. The PTO will engage at an idle but will not stay engaged. My real question however is, where did you get a countershaft for $185?

Thanks,

Mike

 

[cbumdumb]

Work at a dealership in the 90's have replaced more than my share of orc or sprags on 1715 . And external pto clutch really helps these live a long life

 

[joe12185]

I am having the same issue described in this thread, I have torn down everything to the point where the tractor can be seperated, but have noticed that once the fluid was drained from the transmission the pto seems to work fine. I replaced the transmission fluid last year with TSC premium fluid and a new filter, has anyone ever heard of the fluid causing the ORC to slip? I was also wondering if the parts had already been replaced, is there a way to tell?

 

[joe12185]

I have the service manual for the tractor as well as the TSB on this specific issue, the TSB has a list of parts for the repair, the parts alone come to over $1000.00, does anyone know if I will need all of the parts listed in the TSB or if I could simply replace the 2 shafts that make up the ORC?

Update:

I seperated the rear housing from the transmission, the countershaft that drives the one way clutch has a pin in the center of it, the diagram in the TSB shows the new one has a pin in the center of it. I am thinking that this may mean I already have the new parts installed in my tractor and either just need to run different fluid, or replace the one way bearing. any thoughts?

been pondering this for a few hours now, everything I see about this tractor says it has a single clutch, is it possible that someone has added a dual clutch, there is a loader (NH7108) on the tractor which I have supported with jackstands at the moment to support the tractor since I have removed the rear end (tires, axles, 3pt lift and transmission case that contains the ORC) I will add pictures of the operation next.

 

[joe12185]

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I got your pm. You should by inspection be able to see if you have two stage or one stage clutch. With two stage clutch you have tow input shaft both splined, one solid and one hollow shaft wrapping the solid. One shaft is to operate the PTO and the other to be used for locomotion. Just can not see one changing single clutch to dual clutch. If you have one solid shaft for sure you have single clutch.

Picture of a typical two stage clutch.



a Link that shows single clutch for Ford 1715.


New Clutch Plate for Ford New Holland 1700 1710 1715 1725 1925 TC25 TC29 | eBay


Verify what you have and it should be quite easy since you got the tractor split.

ORC operation is strictly mechanical and you do not have a hydraulically activated clutch pack submersed in oil so the answer is for your single clutch or even dual

mechanical clutch oil plays no roll.

ORC should spin in one direction and should stop in another direction. See if you can determine it. Turn PTO shaft on the rear of tractor and inspect and verify input shaft rotation or counter shaft rotation on either side of ORC and report back.

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

Just looked at your pictures and realized you dis not split at the clutch housing. On your 2nd picture there is a metallic funnel shape device and that is your ORC. I think that is an aftermarket or replacement , just kind of remember from a very old thread, not 100% sure. What I'm sure is that is your orc and you need to verify it's operation like I suggested before.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

Thank You for your reply, the ORC works correctly by hand, I reassembled the rear end and filled it with the old fluid and the pto spins fast for about 1/2 a second then very slowly and I can stop it with any resistance. I drained the fluid and tried running it with the engine and the pto cannot be stopped, which leads me to believe that I either have the wrong fluid or the ORC is worn and only works properly at low RPM's. the ORC in my tractor resembles the replacement part in the TSB that was provided by the local dealership. (there is a pin in the center of the shaft that drives the ORC from the countershaft that is driven by the input shaft from the clutch.) I included 2 pictures of that countershaft, in the TSB the old one does not have that pin it is in the list of replacement parts. the shape of the ORC also resembles the replacement part, not the original. I saw in another thread that there was a detent pin that holds the pto engaged and there was a suggestion to use a bungee cord, I tried this last year holding the pto lever in the engaged position by hand and that did not help. I think I have a single clutch based on the information you provided the power comes in from the clutch, is transferred to a countershaft which drives the ORC shaft and on that shaft there are gears that engage the ranges and from there the power is transmitted back into the transmission. I can drive the various pieces of the PTO out, but I was hoping to avoid extra work if it was unnessassary because the problem is elsewhere, also the "one way clutch" described in the TSB and service manual is a special order part non-returnable that is $262.00. that old post you remember was probably this thread page 3, that is how I knew what I was looking for when I tore into the tractor. the other post I found that gave me the idea of the detent pin is titled "Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue"

 

[joe12185]

I think I ruled out the "detent pin" issue, the pto engagement lever and sliding gear seem to be working fine (I don't really see where there is a "detent pin"), I did notice some wear on the sliding gear, but seems pretty minor, I will add pictures of the internal pto engagement lever, and the sliding gear to this post, used a better camera I think so they should be better quality than the other ones I posted.

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe ,

when you fill the diffy with oil and PTO turn and slows down might be what is called "hydraulically coupling". The oil between the gear specialty when cold helps with the engagement but lacks torque and the warmer it gets it has less viscous force to help with the coupling. Your ORC is entirely mechanical in nature and type of oil should not matter for it. I would have wedged a piece of wood in the gear with diffy separated and tuned PTO. It should turn okay in one direction and if it is wedged properly it should not at all turn in the opposite direction. If it does I think PTO internal gear (one way clutch) is chewed up or damaged. Did you find tale tell sign of grounded up metal shaving in the bottom of the diffy?

JC,

Thank You for your reply, the ORC works correctly by hand, I reassembled the rear end and filled it with the old fluid and the pto spins fast for about 1/2 a second then very slowly and I can stop it with any resistance. I drained the fluid and tried running it with the engine and the pto cannot be stopped, which leads me to believe that I either have the wrong fluid or the ORC is worn and only works properly at low RPM's. the ORC in my tractor resembles the replacement part in the TSB that was provided by the local dealership. (there is a pin in the center of the shaft that drives the ORC from the countershaft that is driven by the input shaft from the clutch.) I included 2 pictures of that countershaft, in the TSB the old one does not have that pin it is in the list of replacement parts. the shape of the ORC also resembles the replacement part, not the original. I saw in another thread that there was a detent pin that holds the pto engaged and there was a suggestion to use a bungee cord, I tried this last year holding the pto lever in the engaged position by hand and that did not help. I think I have a single clutch based on the information you provided the power comes in from the clutch, is transferred to a countershaft which drives the ORC shaft and on that shaft there are gears that engage the ranges and from there the power is transmitted back into the transmission. I can drive the various pieces of the PTO out, but I was hoping to avoid extra work if it was unnessassary because the problem is elsewhere, also the "one way clutch" described in the TSB and service manual is a special order part non-returnable that is $262.00. that old post you remember was probably this thread page 3, that is how I knew what I was looking for when I tore into the tractor. the other post I found that gave me the idea of the detent pin is titled "Need advice on NH 1715 PTO Issue"

 

[JC-jetro]

I think I ruled out the "detent pin" issue, the pto engagement lever and sliding gear seem to be working fine (I don't really see where there is a "detent pin"), I did notice some wear on the sliding gear, but seems pretty minor, I will add pictures of the internal pto engagement lever, and the sliding gear to this post, used a better camera I think so they should be better quality than the other ones I posted.

There is actually a detent ball and a spring that holds the engagement lever in engaged position. There is access to it on the side of the diffy when I last looked the diagram. Again , you said you used a bungee cord to keep the lever in engaged positions and it never jumped out. Did you see a pin on sliding fork to the shaft it is attached? usually there is a pin that attached the fork to the shaft and piece of wire wrapped around the shaft and the pin hole to keep the pin steady in place.

JC,

 

[joe12185]

I held the lever in the engaged position with my hand, did not use a bungee cord. The pto stopped working even when I did this. I did not find metal shavings in the fluid, I drained the fluid originally last year and it was almost all grey that was when I replaced it with the TSC fluid and changed the filter because the bucket was not working because of the cold. I found the detent ball and spring under a cap screw just behind the pto lever, removed them and the lever functioned without resistance, I replaced them so they did not get lost. then with the pto in the engaged position, I jammed a stick in the gears so they would not turn and grabbed the orc countershaft and tried to turn it both directions, it would turn only one way so i assume it is functioning properly. These tests lead me to believe that everything is functioning properly (the ORC works smooth, no grinding of any kind). I know that the clutch is working good because plowing snow this winter I was able to stall the engine when the traction was available pushing snow banks back. The pto engagement shaft is connected at both ends with pins and the connections are solid. I'm Stumped. The only thing I can think of is the fluid because the entire system seems to function correctly as long as there is no fluid in it. Pondering reassembly and purchase of FNH134 fluid to see if that makes a difference, does that seem like a dumb idea at this point?

 

[JC-jetro]

Joe,

I'm stumped as well but there always is reason to seek causing the issue. we'll find it.

1- I still do not think it is oil related. Interference is gear to gear and totally mechanical. It should turn the same whether it is immersed in water or oat meal.
2- I did also change my Ford-134 to it's equivalent Mystic TSC brand and had never had any issues. I have for the last 8 years and still looks perfect and after 250 hrs of use.
3-I suggested to jam a piece of wood to check the rotation but I think it is a good idea to get a wrench and try to apply maybe about 20 lb-feet ot torque ro so to see if it spins. May be hand pressure does not apply enough torque. Obviously you do not want to turn so hard to damage gear.


I might suggest another reason, all things check out but if you did have a dual clutch then for sure it might be your second stage of the clutch that operaates your pto. On live (dual clutch) situatin some time they have ORC and sometimes they don't based on make and model. I might check NH website to see if your rig can have ORC with double clutch or not. IF it is your double clutch it might just need adjustment.

Q1- can you by pressing the clutch 1/2 way stop tractor forward movement while pto is turning?

JC

 

[barbqranch]

This is a silly question, but are you sure that the pto shaft is stopping, and not something in the tiller failing?