Ford 1700 3 pt lift problem

[JC-jetro]

Yup. agreed. I hope they come through.

 

[Marinemammal]

Legacy Hydraulics has a one year warrantee policy. They offered to look at the pump and see what it needs. But I was cautioned that parts are not readily available, and those repair kits are often not compatible with after-market pumps. They do have a new pump to sell me though.

I have taken the pump apart and it seems to have a little more wear than the original pump. A friend, with more experience than me, looked at them and didn't see any reason that they would not pump. He suggested looking at the gear that drives the pump, but it looks fine to me. My next move would be to find a shop that can test the pump.

 

[JC-jetro]

Legacy Hydraulics has a one year warrantee policy. They offered to look at the pump and see what it needs. But I was cautioned that parts are not readily available, and those repair kits are often not compatible with after-market pumps. They do have a new pump to sell me though.

I have taken the pump apart and it seems to have a little more wear than the original pump. A friend, with more experience than me, looked at them and didn't see any reason that they would not pump. He suggested looking at the gear that drives the pump, but it looks fine to me. My next move would be to find a shop that can test the pump.

any pics? don't know what he shop can do as far as testing that you could not do with the pump on the tractor. if suction screen and pump inlet is open then can't see that could be the problem. Let's double check on the relief valve, Do you see n the pic below when you removed the and cleaned the inside?

A worn out pump can pump some but may not be able to make good pressure. You tested the pump with the discharge banjo at the relief devise removed and it pumped not very much . That is the tell tale sign. shop testing it is another expense that might not give you anything back. So , what's legacy issue with giving a warranty and then saying can guarantee the overhaul kit. The same dang pump is on fleabay for $500 or so. The pump case appears verbatim the same as mine and that seal does not requires rocket science to create. Did you have it beyond 1 year. Like i suggested before, if the new pump seems worn out around the case and gear than one year old seal might not be bad to put back in the orignal pump and try. Buying the another pump should be the absolute last resort but what caused damage to original two, that need to be figured out to avoid 3rd failure.

 

[Marinemammal]

I've had new pump 3 years/60 hours. The only thing Legacy offered was to look at the pump and maybe say what is wrong. They don't sell the kit, but I was warned that an OEM kit might not be right for the pump they sold me. They are very similar, although the bushing pieces are one unit instead of in halves. I will look at the regulator and get some photos of the pump. I had to be gone yesterday.

 

[JC-jetro]

Ok. I understand that the innards of the NON OEM and seal kit might be different than the OEM. The point is they are selling Non OEM pumps that somebody manufactures including the seals. Are they saying thy can't even provide seal kit for their non oem pump? that would be ridiculous if they can't. I think they should be able to procure overhaul kit for what they sell.

 

[Marinemammal]

Here are some photos of the inside of the pump. The photo of the wear marks on the inside of the body are on the intake side. The output side is smooth. The scratches on the sides of the bushings and the gear wear marks are much worse than the wear marks on the old pump. The gear teeth are more worn as well.

 

[JC-jetro]

I downloaded the pics and zoomed in. The side of both bushings that face the gears looked scuffed up in concentric motion. That could be caused with no oil film or derbies in the fluid. Most likely pump suffered inlet side restriction due to partially plugged screen or damaged screen allowing dirt to be sucked in the pump. My 30 year old tractor pump looked better when my lift stopped working. Even then the pump was pumping but not as strong. Having live hydraulic as soon as I could I took the tractor to the barn and never ran till I get the lift seal done. Then the pump would work but a bit slow was when I decided to look at the inside. No irreversible damage was done by then. Your non oem seal appears to be different. Non oem looks flat but mine was a bit round and fatter to fit tighter. On oem there was a nylon backer to add structural stability to the seal. I think overall, oem seems of a better design. If it were my money I would look for repair kit for oem rather than buying another non-oem. if the gear are scuffed up then I can't see even new seal would help. Gear pump are robust but they sure need clean oil and very tight tolerances to be able to make pressure. I don't know what else legacy can do by looking at the pump. Ddi yy send them the picture to get their professional opinion as pump is all they do? I suppose there is no harm getting a 1000 grit emery cloth and try to buff the groovs with a bit of the oil and put it back together and would give it a last go.

JC,

PS. when I zoomed in it looked to me one of the bushing seal had a bit of cut or damaged, is that so?

 

[Marinemammal]

I didn't remove the regulator from the tractor, but took it all apart and found all the pieces just like in your photo.

There is one symptom of this problem that I don't think I mentioned. When all the hydraulics are working, I could turn the tractor off and let the bucket down by just pushing on the lever. But as the problem starts to show itself, the bucket would no longer go down on it's own with the engine off. I would have to put it in the float position and then put some weight on it to make it go down. The oil from the cylinder should flow easily back to the transmission. But as the piston in the hydraulic cylinder dumped the oil back, then the other side of the piston would have to suck some fluid from where? Through the pump?

 

[JC-jetro]

Hmm, that is a new twist. I know my loader has an over pressure regulator that opens and release pressure line back to the tank. This is to avoid deadheading the pump and causing the main relief valve to lift, dump the pressure which always causes a chatter that you categorized it as hydraulic noise. You do have spool valve for you loader as well. There would pressure line to each side of the loader for two cyllinder to curl and two to lift. They have a return line to the spool and then back to the tank. You must be able to dump the pressure with tractor off unless oil is trapped in the cylinder due to restriction on return flow. Return would not be through the pump. Pump only suck and discharges fluid. Return to tank always happens at a control valve normally have spools to direct flow to different ports.

 

[Marinemammal]

There is an adjustable regulator (similar to the relief valve discussed above--spool valve?) built into the loader control block on the inlet side. The tractor has been sitting outside and I wanted to move it inside, but needed to chain the bucket off the ground. I put the loader lift lever on float and tried to jack up the bucket, and it moved a little but mostly it wanted to lift the front wheels off the ground. With up pressure on the bucket I tried pulling the lever to lift, but that didn't work either. I have got it up far enough to move it inside, but can't understand why I could not get some oil movement in the lift cylinders. The loader valve return line goes into the block that is in between the main relief valve and the control valve side cover.

I couldn't find any damage or cut to the bushing seal on the pump--which picture were you looking at? And the original pump does have the nylon backer for the bushing seal like yours and the Legacy pump does not. I think I will send photos to Legacy to see what their response would be.

 

[JC-jetro]

There is an adjustable regulator (similar to the relief valve discussed above--spool valve?) built into the loader control block on the inlet side. The tractor has been sitting outside and I wanted to move it inside, but needed to chain the bucket off the ground. I put the loader lift lever on float and tried to jack up the bucket, and it moved a little but mostly it wanted to lift the front wheels off the ground. With up pressure on the bucket I tried pulling the lever to lift, but that didn't work either. I have got it up far enough to move it inside, but can't understand why I could not get some oil movement in the lift cylinders. The loader valve return line goes into the block that is in between the main relief valve and the control valve side cover. It was your picture #4 next to input shaft. It might have been a bit of oil, difficult to see if a bit of oil or cut based on light reflection.

I couldn't find any damage or cut to the bushing seal on the pump--which picture were you looking at? And the original pump does have the nylon backer for the bushing seal like yours and the Legacy pump does not. I think I will send photos to Legacy to see what their response would be.

You must have some serious restriction on the return line in the spool (loader control valve). For now You can crack open the hose on the lift cylinder on the side that collapses the loader lift cylinder and then try to jack the loader , just a bit to bleed some pressure off. I don't what other explanation there would be. Look at the hinge on the loader arm, can it possibly be frozen although highly unlikely.I know you manipulate the loader lever while jacking up the loader bucket. move it all different direction to see if it bleeds off. For example on my kubota which is always stored in the barn. I always lower lower my bucket and rest on two 4x4 block , then I move my loader valve to dump off extra pressure to avoid having stored energy in any part of the lift system. To me it is safer and seals are not under any hydraulic pressure unnecessarily.

 

[Marinemammal]

I do the same--try to keep the pressure off everything--plus there's little kids around. This tractor is almost a daily driver. Not much time every day, but a little. So I know that there is nothing wrong with the loader hinges. Saying that, after trying a few other things to get the bucket to jack up, I disconnected both of the lines on the loader control valve for the lift and it still wouldn't jack up--it just lifted the tractor wheels. So I tried removing the lines to the curl side and it worked just fine. I could move it up and down by hand. Not much oil came out, so the lines much have been pretty empty. So I guess there must be something keeping it from raising. Yesterday I was able to push it down--just can't get it to go up.

 

[JC-jetro]

Yup, in my line of work I always advise our techs to watch for release of stored energy, potential or kinetic and like you said with kidos around sticking their lil noses where it does not belong. When you resolve the pump, take the tractor outside and with the hose fitting lose see if you can get it to leak indicating flow. I wondered if loader valve function doomed the pump, but again you said it does have over pressure relief.

 

[Marinemammal]

Today, I am going to try to get the shaft seal out of the new pump and put it in the old pump. I think you recommended this at one point. Usually seals bend when removing, but this one has a snap ring and it can be pressed out from the other side, so maybe it will come out easier. Then I will reinstall the old pump and try the volume test again, because the output line is still disconnected. If there's something near to the normal output (I think you said 5 gpm) then reconnect it with the pressure gauge in place and see what happens.

 

[JC-jetro]

Ok that sound good. At this point anythng gained would be a positive. my shaft seal also had a snap ring and was easy to take it. Obviously my shaft seal was bad but not sure on yours. Make sure to take some 1000 grit emery cloth and withh a bit of oil try to smooth out some of the rough surfaces in the case. I hope you kept the seal and backer from the old pump. When you put it all back together make sure lub all the port. Can put a bit of oil in the pump inlet and rotate input shaft by hand. Oil in the pump will help priming the line. I hope your screen is clean along with the suction pipe. Yes, 5.3 gpm @ 2100 is what was advertised o the owner manual. flow will be higher with no restriction in the discharge such as relief device. I think you will be okay if you can fill 1/2 of 5 gallon bucket in 15-20 second. it will make a mess so be ready for it, I would wrap the discharge banjo with plastic to direct the flow down in to a bucket ... but still will be a mess. Good luck.

 

[Marinemammal]

I got about 3-4 gpm right out of the pump--much easier to catch than from the end of the outlet pipe. When the outlet pipe was hooked up, the tractor seemed to regain some of its power steering, 3-point, and loader function. It was slow in coming, and a little erratic, but it was working. Maybe it will take some time to get all the air out of the cylinders. I raised the loader all the way up to see if there was a bent rod, but they lined up well with a straight-edge. I let it gravity all the way down with the tractor off. Sometimes the hydraulics seemed to be completely fine, and then everything would stop working.

 

[JC-jetro]

I got about 3-4 gpm right out of the pump--much easier to catch than from the end of the outlet pipe. When the outlet pipe was hooked up, the tractor seemed to regain some of its power steering, 3-point, and loader function. It was slow in coming, and a little erratic, but it was working. Maybe it will take some time to get all the air out of the cylinders. I raised the loader all the way up to see if there was a bent rod, but they lined up well with a straight-edge. I let it gravity all the way down with the tractor off. Sometimes the hydraulics seemed to be completely fine, and then everything would stop working.

Awsome, success at last. The OEM pump is well designed.Make sure use good oil. what I suggested works well. I have a suspicion that your screen may be not as clean. Floor of diffy really need to be vacuumed as I suggested. First time I did my hyd, i opened the bottom bolt and nothing came out, made a hook thingy out of a clothes hanger, shoved it thru the hole and there it came with a dead rat looking thing that was all the garbage collected there. vacuuming thru the inlet screen hole and was able to get two quart worth of muck. I have to give it to you as you are persistent like truly your. Good job ... for now. I think your tractor passed a kidney stone

 

[Marinemammal]

This afternoon, when started it seemed to work fine--maybe a little slow and jerky. But then it practially stopped working. I wanted to check the pressure and adjust the relief valve. My book has the following test.

Install gauge by removing that plug.
Disconnect position control link.
Set control lever to lowering position.
Start engine, run at high speed. (P=0)
Move control lever to highest lifting position. Relief valve should operate. (P=1400psi)
Turn adjuster screw until pressure of 2133+/-71psi is obtained. (I got it to 2000psi).

When trying to raise the bucket (it was slow and jerky) the pressure pegged the (3000psi) gauge, the bucket when up fast, and then the gauge went down to 1500psi.

Then the loader would not go up or down. With the tractor off and the position control link disconnected--when the bucket floated down, the 3-point come up.

The oil seemed foamy, and I'm not seeing any consistency in the operation.

I have heard your advice on a clean screen. Before all this testing, I had cleaned the screen and changed the oil. The screen hadn't looked dirty at all--no obvious gunk anyway. The oil was clean--just very dark. The last oil change I did before this one was where I had tried to get all the milky looking oil out, and I think I was pretty successful judging from the condition of the oil drained out during the latest oil change.

 

[JC-jetro]

This afternoon, when started it seemed to work fine--maybe a little slow and jerky. But then it practially stopped working. I wanted to check the pressure and adjust the relief valve. My book has the following test.

I guess I spoke too soon eh! as you know from my pics I do not have loader on my F-1700 so I am not intimately familiar with it's plumbing. Saying that a lot of fundamental is the same. few things don't add up well.

Install gauge by removing that plug.
Disconnect position control link.
Set control lever to lowering position.
Start engine, run at high speed. (P=0)
Move control lever to highest lifting position. Relief valve should operate. (P=1400psi)
Turn adjuster screw until pressure of 2133+/-71psi is obtained. (I got it to 2000psi).
Yes, that is the exact procedure I followed from my IT-FO44 shop manual. I adjusted mine close to 2100 psi.

When trying to raise the bucket (it was slow and jerky) the pressure pegged the (3000psi) gauge, the bucket when up fast, and then the gauge went down to 1500psi.

Did you read the pressure gauge at the same location where you adjusted the system pressure ? In other word you did not change location of the gauge like I pictured, right? if that is correct then this then your relief valve is not working right. The supply to your loader is after the 2000 psi you set. Now if you lift the tractor off the ground using the loader pressure developed in the lift cylinder is not the pump and portion of it is just weight of the tractor against trapped oil in the cylinder and that could potentially happen if your spool relif for the loader does not work. if you did not have the relief at the loader control valve you really can damage the loader.


Then the loader would not go up or down. With the tractor off and the position control link disconnected--when the bucket floated down, the 3-point come up.

is there any way you can remove oil pressure line to the loader and cap it @ the hydraulic block possibly after raising the bucket and perhaps secure it with a chain. I have on my Kubota QA bucket so I take it off easily but don't believe you have that. I am trying to see if you can exclude loader from picture to see if 3-point system works like it should.


The oil seemed foamy, and I'm not seeing any consistency in the operation.
foamy oil is never good. That is indication of a lot of turbulence, restriction or entirely wrong oil. Pump cannot and is not designed to move foam.

I have heard your advice on a clean screen. Before all this testing, I had cleaned the screen and changed the oil. The screen hadn't looked dirty at all--no obvious gunk anyway. The oil was clean--just very dark. The last oil change I did before this one was where I had tried to get all the milky looking oil out, and I think I was pretty successful judging from the condition of the oil drained out during the latest oil change.

hyd oil should not get black as there is no combustion is going on in the crankcase. Saying that if the oil gets too hot and a wrong oil then it could get dark. With the exception of the time I got condensation and moisture in my oil that caused to be grey any other time by inspection of hyd oil dip stick the oil was clear. Even with all the sludge in the diffy, the transmission oil looked relatively clean when I did my first hyd oil change.

at least your oem pump seems to work for now. You want to make sure that does not get messed up. The culprit might be your loader system, let's see if that can be isolated from 3-point. I am kind of running out of ideas.

 

[oosik]

My first tractor was a brand new 1982 Ford 1700 4WD. One day it started this "jerking" motion when I raised the rear blade. I opened the raise/lower valve wide open. Raised/lowered the rear blade MANY times. For whatever reason - the jerking motion quit and never returned. I would guess there was air in the system or something got stuck or a bit of flotsam in the system got flushed out.