Ford 1500/1700 injector pump

[Texas Blues]

Yea ray I was thinking that too. Im not sure that that picture was with that same group of pictures of the disassembled engine but it might have been. Ok heres what we need to do........all you 1700 owners without the drain plugs, go ahead and pull your motors apart, we need an answer! LOL.

If the oil came from the front, there would have to be an oil journal, a tube, or a splasher of some sort to get the oil through the front of the pump. That would mean alot of different parts that those pics dont show. I have a feeling that if a guy who does not have the plugs, needed a timing cover (or a backing plate for the timing cover) for whatever reason, and he told the parts guy that he did not have the plugs, the parts guy would probably give him the cover like the one in the picture anyway. Mostly because there is only one part number, and the list doesnt specify a secondary type of cover. And if he needed the pump its self, it looks like the same thing would apply, there is only one number listed for the pump (at least on the new holland parts list). The pump would not be able to be fed by oil pressure without a way to drain the excess or it would just over flow. Do any of those plugless pumps have any extra oil lines coming to them?
Is it possible it is lubricated buy the fuel?
lol cmon one of you ford parts guys, we need to know lol TB

 

[old1500]

Like I said above TB...I am one of the "plug-less" victims and there is NO other connection (save the fuel lines of course) between the injector pump and the block. I also had a thought that it may be lubed by fuel, but it seems there would have to be some metering device to just let so much in and then you have to do something with it when it gets dirty.

I am not that excited about it yet (or had enough beers) to go out a rip off my front end to see if the connection is different with the plug-less pumps.

 

[Texas Blues]

Maybe it was a machining mistake, and the "revised" models had the plugged versions. Funny thing about that is the part number on the pumps in jones's pictures, the unplugged one is one digit higher. Or maybe there was a massive recall to change the pumps once they realized what happened. No wait, thats not a toyota.......... TB

 

[old1500]

I know this is an "aged" thread, but I finally got around to fooling with my tractor again. The question as I recall was....."to plug or not to plug" the 1500/1700 injection pump. I went ahead and plugged mine with 1/16th. NPT plugs. The upper one in the center of the pump is pretty useless, as I see it. It would be very hard to fill through that hole, but it could be done. I do know that if you consider it as a check-for-full opening...it takes around 5-6-ounces for it to run out that center hole, which is too much oil.

Like others suggested, I simply greased my bit...took it easy and drilled the holes. I followed those up with a well greased 1/16th. plug tap and then flushed it 2-3 times with diesel and then flushed it another 2-3 times with motor oil. I plan to change it as soon as I get a few hours on it.

There is plenty of boss on the case for the 1/16th. plug. After I carefully drilled each hole, I checked the depth and discovered that there was fully and inch-or-more of free-space between the case and the back of the hole before I came into contact with anything.

Photo attached and I am now "plugged".

 

[JC-jetro]

Old,

We're indeed relived that now you join the rank of plugged people Was 2 to 2.5 oz the amount of oil you needed?

JC,

 

[Texas Blues]

Good job Old, its definitely better to know you have oil in it than to wonder why there were no plugs and have it go dry.

 

[old1500]

JC....based on your recommendation...I have around 2 1/2 ounces in there. I know for a fact that much more than that is too much. I am reasonably sure this tractor had not had any service in that area since Adolf ****** was a corporal and I only drained-out enough to barely wet the ground the fist time I checked it. I think there was one guy her someplace in the thread that measured a 4-ounce output when he drained his, but I am not sure if it was a 1500/1700 or what. When I put that much in this thing...I swear it looses rpm and that can only be oil dragging down the weights. I am a self anointed rocket-scientist (like all would-be tractor mechanics) and that's what I think anyway.

Besides my now being "plugged" I can drain and fill as often as I want to.

 

[Jbrink64]

You put about 1/2 quart of engine oil in the large plug on top of the pump. The excess will run out the shaft and into the oilpan. Then change the engine oil and filter.

 

[JC-jetro]

You put about 1/2 quart of engine oil in the large plug on top of the pump. The excess will run out the shaft and into the oilpan. Then change the engine oil and filter.

On 1700 thee is no physical connection or overflow between the pump body and inside of crankcase( at least not on mine and several of the oother 1700 owners here). Putting 1/2 quart of oil will fill the pump completely to the point you will have leftover oil to pour and as the result you'd start overflowing/overfilling from the top. The recommendation is to fill from top while the level hole is open( the level hole is between the drain and top fill). As soon as oil start seeping out of the level hole then you're done. There are tractors that hyd pump share the same oil in crankcase but 1700 is not one of them.

Jc,

 

[old1500]

I admit to being way down on the list of tractor experts and most of what I have learned has been off this forum and the school-of-hard-knocks. I can only say that I have some pictures that came off one of these threads that show the oil seal on the injector pump-shaft where it sticks through the housing. There being no other physical connection between the pump and the motor....oil can't get past that seal.

 

[drakefamily2]

I also have one of the pumps with no plugs. Have always wondered how to do maint. but didn't have a clue. After finding your web site finally decided to give it a try. Loosened bolts on end plate and pried the bottom open, just a few dribbles of very thin looking oil came out, maybe a half ounce. retightend plate bolts and added 2 ounces of oil. started up and checked for leaks, looked fine, thanks a lot guys.

 

[JC-jetro]

I also have one of the pumps with no plugs. Have always wondered how to do maint. but didn't have a clue. After finding your web site finally decided to give it a try. Loosened bolts on end plate and pried the bottom open, just a few dribbles of very thin looking oil came out, maybe a half ounce. retightend plate bolts and added 2 ounces of oil. started up and checked for leaks, looked fine, thanks a lot guys.

cool Glad you were able to sort out information needed out of 1700 related archives.

JC,


ps. Welcome to TBN Blue

 

[RobertBrown]

I notice that I had exactly the same Diesel kiki pump on an Iseki I sold a few years back. Great little tractor, just too hard to get parts for.
Anyway, my pump had drain and fill ports. It was specified to hold 4 oz of oil. If you read the thread you will find that everytime I changed the oil it was thin, depleated, and smelled bad, although the pump was working fine. The conclusion was the fuel lubricated the pump.
This pump was for a 2 cylinder Isuzu.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/63097-injector-pump.html#post704702

I think this underscores the importance of using offroad or avoiding lowsulfur diesel fuel in older tractors as it could ruin your injector pump.
I did look into a rebuild for this pump and if I remember corectly it would cost about 300$ with shipping.

 

[JC-jetro]

I notice that I had exactly the same Diesel kiki pump on an Iseki I sold a few years back. Great little tractor, just too hard to get parts for.
Anyway, my pump had drain and fill ports. It was specified to hold 4 oz of oil. If you read the thread you will find that everytime I changed the oil it was thin, depleated, and smelled bad, although the pump was working fine. The conclusion was the fuel lubricated the pump.
This pump was for a 2 cylinder Isuzu.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/iseki/63097-injector-pump.html#post704702

I think this underscores the importance of using offroad or avoiding lowsulfur diesel fuel in older tractors as it could ruin your injector pump.
I did look into a rebuild for this pump and if I remember corectly it would cost about 300$ with shipping.

2 oz is exactly what I get when I drained my injector pump on several occasions. I do fill it up to overflow hole in the middle. Good point about the less lubricity of low sulfur diesel. I do use power service additive to the tune of 2 oz per 5 gallons to help it out.

JC,

 

[drakefamily2]

If anybody needs a pump there is one on Ebay now for $495. Item 110721690113

 

[teachag]

I too have one of the plug-less pumps. I stumbled on this thread when I was trying to figure it out. I called my local New Holland/Ford dealership and talked to the service manager. He said he would look into it and sent me the following email.

Good afternoon, The 1700 Ford tractors that were produced after 12/1980 did not all have the drain plug on them,and there can be a few before 1980 as there is no clear date of production change. The pumps without a drain plug are lubricated by the engine oil (pressure) and do not require the oil to be replaced as it is continualy circulated by the engine oil pressure.

I am not sure that I totally trust it, but there it is for what it is worth I am currently trying to decide if I just go with it or if I try to change the oil.:confused3:

 

[old1500]

I don't trust it. I know the only way oil can get into and out of my pump is either by accident, or if I change it. I do not see and cannot find any path for the engine oil to get into or out of the pump. I drilled-n-tapped both the fill and drain-plug bosses and installed pipe plugs. It may very well lubricate itself buy magic, but it does not hurt to drain it and change it either.....can't hurt anything. If it's somehow true that the pump oil gets to and fro into the crank case....that's okay by me, but I installed the plugs.

 

[JC-jetro]

On this particular injection pump there is no physical evidence that crankcase is lucubrating it and is corroborated with parts diagram in NH website and service manual. I can only see if the pump shaft leaks then there might be some oil drain from the pump (not from crankcase to pump) in to timing gear cover and then getting in to crankcase thru timing gear cover. Drilling and tapping is just fine. One can drain it also by cracking the back plate a bit open to drain, use the fill on top and put 2 oz oil that is recommended.

JC,

 

[JC-jetro]

I admit to being way down on the list of tractor experts and most of what I have learned has been off this forum and the school-of-hard-knocks. I can only say that I have some pictures that came off one of these threads that show the oil seal on the injector pump-shaft where it sticks through the housing. There being no other physical connection between the pump and the motor....oil can't get past that seal.

The pump is bolted to the backside of the timing gear cover and not to the block. Then there is timing gear cover, so if the pump shaft seal leaks then there is the possibility of pump oil to drain in to timing gear cover. The housing that you saw is not part of engine block. go thru the thread and reexamine the pic. I hate to duplicate the pic again. I can do it if you are not convinced enough.

JC,

 

[John85259]

Bringing this back to the top, I have a Ford 1500 tractor with the original Diesel Niki fuel injection pump. The original pump is in very poor shape. I took it to a local shop that rebuilds them and they said it needs a lot of parts and would be expensive to rebuild and that I might look around for a used pump. I've found one pump that might work. The number on the pump from my tractor is 4302-657. The number on the used pump that "may" work is 4302-419. Are these two pumps equivalent?

I asked the local rebuilding shop if the used pump (4302-419) is correct for my tractor and he wasn't sure. He said it would fit and the tractor should run, but he didn't know enough about the numbers on these to know if there are any small internal differences between the two pumps. I'm assuming he means that one pump might flow a slightly different amount of fuel or something like that.

I noticed that the 1700 pumps that are shown earlier in this thread have numbers of 104302-4190 and 104302-4191. Unfortunately, I did not see any 1500 pumps with legible numbers.

Any thoughts on whether the used pump would be functionally equivalent to the original pump would be appreciated.

John