MossRoad
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Everybody disparages lawyers.... until they need one. 
Florescent Lighting Bans?
- Thread starter ultrarunner
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Suburban Plowboy
Veteran Member
Clients are almost always the slimiest people in the courtroom.
JTKub
Veteran Member
We had 1000's of 4ft T12 and T8 fixtures at the plant I work at a lot of 8ft T12s as well. Most of this lighting is never turned off as the plant operates 24/7/365.
Loosing a T8 ballast was rare. I can think of maybe one or two in the 28yrs I've worked there. The T12 fixtures was another matter. Constant ballast issues.
We could get maybe 3-5 years out of 4ft T8 lamps in continuous operation. Longer in office environments. Shorter out in the plant.
Mostly everything is converted over to blinding LED now, including all the high pressure sodium high bay fixtures and roadway lights. I don't care for the glare from most of them. They give off an insane amount of "light" per watt, but it ain't pretty IMO.
The most amazing thing I've seen at our plant is some old mercury vapor lighting with holophane hoods/reflectors. There were installed in the late 1940s and still light up with ancient US made Westinghouse MV lamps in them.
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DarkBlack
Elite Member
I’ve done multiple large upgrade lighting projects to LED, using the help of utility company reimbursement programs. Probably aren’t as many anymore, but I would still check. Combined with the energy savings, the payback is relatively short.
DarkBlack
Elite Member
I put those thousands of used T8’s on Craigslist and some other local media for free. I guy from a couple towns over was happy to take them. He used them for some school project
rontaki
Veteran Member
With LED lighting, beware of low color rendition index (CRI) and/or too high of a color temperature. Often, in order to get a high lumen-per-watt number, the CRI is sacrificed and the color temperature in the blinding blue light territory. I prefer the warmer light output, but not too yellowish like some warm LEDs can be. The technology is still progressing.
ning
Elite Member
Fluorescent lighting is surprisingly efficient - typically 50-100 lumens per watt.
Of course, LEDs are more like 130 lumens per watt, so they're even more efficient.
One source gives 21.5W LED retrofit for T8 at 172 lumens per watt.
Incandescent lighting is more like 15 (5-20 range).
Personally I get eye strain and headaches in fluorescent-lit spaces that I haven't noticed elsewhere. I suspect my pupils don't react to the wavelengths so my eyes let in too much light and get overloaded, but it could also be the 60Hz flickering which is pretty obvious. I've replaced CFLs and T8s while they're still otherwise functional because of color temp and flicker; when possible I've used the "remove/bypass the balast" type replacements but I understand not doing that to replace an entire hospital's lighting...
Of course, LEDs are more like 130 lumens per watt, so they're even more efficient.
One source gives 21.5W LED retrofit for T8 at 172 lumens per watt.
Incandescent lighting is more like 15 (5-20 range).
Personally I get eye strain and headaches in fluorescent-lit spaces that I haven't noticed elsewhere. I suspect my pupils don't react to the wavelengths so my eyes let in too much light and get overloaded, but it could also be the 60Hz flickering which is pretty obvious. I've replaced CFLs and T8s while they're still otherwise functional because of color temp and flicker; when possible I've used the "remove/bypass the balast" type replacements but I understand not doing that to replace an entire hospital's lighting...
MossRoad
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Just an FYI...
Fluorescent lights flicker at twice the HZ of the input, so in the U.S., that's about 120HZ.
Maybe this?
Why does artificial light hurt my eyes? Is it Irlen Syndrome? - Irlen
Understanding Irlen Syndrome: Can Fluorescent Lights Affect Us and Why Does Artificial Light Hurt Our Eyes? Welcome to the nuanced understanding of Irlen Syndrome, a perceptual processing disorder that affects the way the brain interprets visual information. At Irlen.com, we explore the complex...
irlen.com
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On one side of the aisle, anyway. On the other is usually someone who's just been broadsided.
Suburban Plowboy
Veteran Member
I would not say that. A lot of the time, the defendants know exactly what they did wrong, deserve to be sued into poverty, and are just hoping the victim isn't industrious enough to fight back.
I represented a little guy who was fired by Winn-Dixie for working off the clock. He worked off the clock because they forced him to, along with a bunch of other employees. He turned them in, and they fired him for it, which is illegal. Then they had the gall to say the reason was that he had worked off the clock.
My dad told him to cash his final check, and they wrote an invalid disclaimer on it, claiming that if he cashed it, he waived all claims. This is illegal, and they owed him the money anyway. Winn-Dixie's attorney managed to convince a stupid trial judge and an equally stupid appellate panel that the disclaimer was valid, so that was the end of that.
Judges are often very stupid. A good attorney always takes account of this and warns his clients that being right doesn't always mean winning. I can't think of a single bright judge I dealt with, and that includes the ones who let me win because I fooled them or because I taught them the law.
The Winn-Dixie guy had two kids, one of whom was seriously disabled. He had no education. He was hoping to become a meat market manager and do his best for his family. I still feel horrible about what happened to him. I didn't want him to cash the check.
I represented another lady whose immediate supervisor in a sewing sweatshop kept telling her how big something was and how he wanted to show it to her. Kept telling her she needed to have *** with a Brazilian man. Her Mexican husband worked in the same building. Didn't matter to her boss.
****** harassment turned out to be a much more productive field than I thought. I was never able to find a real case of race discrimination, but the *** stuff was abundant. My dad told me about a management guy who used to tell a female employee her paycheck was in the front pocket of his pants, and she had to come get it. He had lots of tales like that.
As for slimy clients, one guy told me Winn-Dixie had held him in a store for a very long time, accusing him of stealing beer. He said he showed them the receipt and they still held him for 45 minutes. Then opposing counsel deposed him, and he said they let him go right away. End of case. I told him to find another attorney.
My first boss was a patent lawyer who had been Sam Popeil's counsel. Told me interesting stuff about Popeil's commercials. Remember how the Ginsu knife cut through a nail? It was lead. Remember how it cut through a boot? The boot had been soaked in lye. Wow.
Sam was Ron's dad, and they hated each other. They were competitors. For a time, Ron dated Lindsay Wagner, the Bionic Woman. Sam invented a knife and cutting board that folded away conveniently, and to needle his son, he called it the Bionic Knife.
I represented a little guy who was fired by Winn-Dixie for working off the clock. He worked off the clock because they forced him to, along with a bunch of other employees. He turned them in, and they fired him for it, which is illegal. Then they had the gall to say the reason was that he had worked off the clock.
My dad told him to cash his final check, and they wrote an invalid disclaimer on it, claiming that if he cashed it, he waived all claims. This is illegal, and they owed him the money anyway. Winn-Dixie's attorney managed to convince a stupid trial judge and an equally stupid appellate panel that the disclaimer was valid, so that was the end of that.
Judges are often very stupid. A good attorney always takes account of this and warns his clients that being right doesn't always mean winning. I can't think of a single bright judge I dealt with, and that includes the ones who let me win because I fooled them or because I taught them the law.
The Winn-Dixie guy had two kids, one of whom was seriously disabled. He had no education. He was hoping to become a meat market manager and do his best for his family. I still feel horrible about what happened to him. I didn't want him to cash the check.
I represented another lady whose immediate supervisor in a sewing sweatshop kept telling her how big something was and how he wanted to show it to her. Kept telling her she needed to have *** with a Brazilian man. Her Mexican husband worked in the same building. Didn't matter to her boss.
****** harassment turned out to be a much more productive field than I thought. I was never able to find a real case of race discrimination, but the *** stuff was abundant. My dad told me about a management guy who used to tell a female employee her paycheck was in the front pocket of his pants, and she had to come get it. He had lots of tales like that.
As for slimy clients, one guy told me Winn-Dixie had held him in a store for a very long time, accusing him of stealing beer. He said he showed them the receipt and they still held him for 45 minutes. Then opposing counsel deposed him, and he said they let him go right away. End of case. I told him to find another attorney.
My first boss was a patent lawyer who had been Sam Popeil's counsel. Told me interesting stuff about Popeil's commercials. Remember how the Ginsu knife cut through a nail? It was lead. Remember how it cut through a boot? The boot had been soaked in lye. Wow.
Sam was Ron's dad, and they hated each other. They were competitors. For a time, Ron dated Lindsay Wagner, the Bionic Woman. Sam invented a knife and cutting board that folded away conveniently, and to needle his son, he called it the Bionic Knife.
OP
ultrarunner
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My then pregnant sister in law was T-boned when a UC Berkeley student ran a red light.Everybody disparages lawyers.... until they need one.
My brother spoke to several lawyers and the only ones willing to take the case were in the 40-42% of recovery.
My brother reached out to the insurance company for the red light runner and he was told to have his lawyer call as they do not speak with injured parties directly.
Brother prepared his own legal filing and filed suit in Superior Court… now the insurance company wanted to talk but offered pennies.
Brother said see you in court…
Morning of court judge directed a pre court settlement conference… same offer…
Brother said the figure I provided is the amount to settle.
As the clerk called the case… the lawyer for the insurance company said to the Judge we accept the amount plaintiff requests.
Just think how many would have folded or caved?
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ultrarunner
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PGE has offered programs and I was approved for parking lot lighting and then PGE filed bankruptcy… every year come new fires so it’s sketchy at best.
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ultrarunner
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The very good ones I had been getting were superseded so my recent option for the 3500k is 85 CRI and 2925 lm.
The LED replacement are 80 CRI and 10% less lm.
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ultrarunner
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There is also a question of maintaining UL listing for altered fixtures…
DarkBlack
Elite Member
I did tons of two tube 8’ T12 fixtures to 8’ twin T8 conversions, with a roughly 40% utility reimbursement program, then about 10 years later the same program to replace the T8’s with LED. 8’ LED’s are hard to find, and the utilities know it so offered a good 40% program on replacing replacement of the entire twin tube fixtures to LED fixtures made for using four common inexpensive 4’ LED “tubes”. I just had to meet certain efficiency standards. I had some extra labor dismantling all the old fixtures, separating the metal, magnetic ballasts, electronic ballasts, and wiring.
Lights were in a 24/7 facility, so the break even was fast, like just over a year
DarkBlack
Elite Member
Lighting retrofitting is fun especially when there’s rebate programs.
I remember doing a high bay 450 watt metal halide fixtures to 4 tube HO T8 fixtures with occupancy sensors. No slow warmup anymore on cold mornings, so that cut back on complaints about the lights switching on/off
Then they offered another program to convert those 4 tube T8 HO fixtures to equivalent lumen 6 “tube” high bay LED fixtures with sensors. By then, everyone had learned to embrace the new lighting technology.
Only drawbacks I could see we had with LED was obviously strong visual strobe effects on exposed turning machinery ( very pronounced with clear tube designs), and because LED’s front end power circuits only draw current on cycle peaks, our power factor was effected, and we paid a little more for our expensive separate demand chargebut we paid less in kwh. Residential customers don’t usually have to account for demand though, so not a concern for the majority
I remember doing a high bay 450 watt metal halide fixtures to 4 tube HO T8 fixtures with occupancy sensors. No slow warmup anymore on cold mornings, so that cut back on complaints about the lights switching on/off
Then they offered another program to convert those 4 tube T8 HO fixtures to equivalent lumen 6 “tube” high bay LED fixtures with sensors. By then, everyone had learned to embrace the new lighting technology.
Only drawbacks I could see we had with LED was obviously strong visual strobe effects on exposed turning machinery ( very pronounced with clear tube designs), and because LED’s front end power circuits only draw current on cycle peaks, our power factor was effected, and we paid a little more for our expensive separate demand chargebut we paid less in kwh. Residential customers don’t usually have to account for demand though, so not a concern for the majority
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ultrarunner
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I was in a warehouse that had a energy efficient grant and the high bay cast aluminum fixtures were cut with a bolt cutter to crash to the floor…
The old Chief was there and said for decades they work flawlessly… now junk smashed to smithereens…
The old Chief was there and said for decades they work flawlessly… now junk smashed to smithereens…
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
I agree with everything EXCEPT i never leave a ballast. Never.
Youve just left an object that will fail and ruin the retrofit.
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Im not sure how we get by altering the innerds of light fixtures the way we do. By cutting out the ballast and installing direct wired led tubes, we have definitely altered the ul rating. Bit as ling as we install the sticker alerting to the change, i have never had an issue with this with an inspector. Ive even had inspectors hire me to swap out their shop lighting
grsthegreat
Super Star Member
Nearly all the projects I have taken on in lighting conversion (commercial or industrial) was paid for by utility companies. They came thru every time and paid in full. Most times these plans covered all parts and labor, except for a few jobs where labor hours were higher due to exposure or vapor enclosed lighting. On those the company paid the difference. Even covered most scissor lift rental and disposal fees
