FEL repair kit

[Gittyup]

Sorry guys. I am extremely skeptical that it works very well or will continue to work effectively over time. Looks more like a fancy way to cover the thing up. All those bolts just deter you from inspecting. I guess all you can do is make sure those stress relieving bolts are kept tight. Afterall, you are relying 100% on those 4 bolts to transfer stess off the main member. For sure, it's gotta stiffen it. But what happens as the metal fatiques such that the bolts loosen and you use it without retightening the bolts. I could see where they would feel tight, but not actually be tight.

It'll be interesting to see as time goes on whether it is an effective fix. The never ending story of the FEL repair kit goes on.

 

[mauistardog]

Hi guys,

I just want to make sure it's clear, it was hard getting a photo, but will try to post another. In the first photo I was trying to show the TWO metal plates. There is a 1/2 inch piece of steel on the bottom and then a 1/4 inch piece of steel that is a clam shell type of thing. So there is no gap under the bolted clam shell. Another piece of steel is under it and it does not or did not go flush to the outside edge of the clam shell cover on that side. There is a small gap between the whole bolt on kit and the loader arms, but not much and is not connected to the loader arms from what I can tell. The extra piece of 1/2 inch thick steel is only on the outside/top part of the tube.

aloha
joe

 

[Gittyup]

Joe,

I see there is a piece that wraps around so that when you tighten the bolts you are actually squeezing the whole adapter around the crosstube. It that correct? If so, that is better. Still better check those bolts often.

 

[mauistardog]

Well, there is a 1/2 inch steel plate across the front of the cross tube. This 1/2 inch steel plate is then wrapped by an exterior 1/4 inch steel plates. The outside or exterior 1/4 plates are in two pieces. A "C" shaped piece or if you stick your right hand out and make a backward "c" that what it looks like. The plate on the back seems to hold bolt it all together and has 4 adjustment bolts. The 1/2 inch steel plate does not seem to be bolted to anything, it is held in place by the force of the 1/4 steel wrap. I am not an engineer but it is beefy looking. I will keep an eye out for loose bolts. In the 4 years I have had the machine, i only had one bolt come loose. That I know of

hope this helps

aloha
joe

 

[Renze]

Hmmm i followed this thread for a while over the past months, but i havent replied yet..

Somebody mentioned business school case study.... I think most moaners in this thread grasp litte about structural engineering as well as business, they just demand beyond reason, and set up a "witch hunt" aimed at Kioti....

Maybe Kioti was a bit late to react to all this madness, but from a business point of view they have made a wise decision: They took responsibility for the problem, and not asked their dealers to weld or drill on the frame, which would mean that they ask their dealers to take responsibility for a fix of Kioti's SUBCONTRACTOR's problem... Kioti itself could impossibly send certified welders from the responsible production subcontractor to all their U.S. customers to fix this.

The patch is aesthetically o.k. but technically looks silly.... Unfortunately, companies cannot decide on technical reasons alone, but also have to weigh product liability reasons in their equasions...
If i had such a loader, i would have voided Kioti's warranty by cutting out a square plate with a hole in it, out of half inch plate, and weld it around the service hatch, to cure the problem at the origin, and even be able to use the original service cover. That would cut me off all future warranty claims, but i am fully qualified to take that risk myself...


....And i still have to see a photo to back up the claims of "catastrophic failure"

 

[rcrcomputing]

Renze,
I'm unclear on the point of your post. You think Kioti should get us the fix or not? My dealer has been unable to get the kit. My tractor, that was under warranty at the time I noticed the cracks still has cracks. Looks like crap if nothing else.. And doesn't exactly fill you with confidence..
Just pisses me off every time I see it..

 

[IslandTractor]

Hmmm i followed this thread for a while over the past months, but i havent replied yet..

Somebody mentioned business school case study.... I think most moaners in this thread grasp litte about structural engineering as well as business, they just demand beyond reason, and set up a "witch hunt" aimed at Kioti....

Maybe Kioti was a bit late to react to all this madness, but from a business point of view they have made a wise decision: They took responsibility for the problem, .........

I must disagree. They have never really issued a clear statement that there was a real problem. The only statement they ever made public that I am aware of was a note that there was a "cosmetic" cracking issue. They never apologized or explained the delays in getting the repair kits out to the KL130 owners. They basically never communicated to the owners after the first letter. I actually never received any letter from Kioti ever despite the fact that I was the third or fourth person to report cracking on my KL120 and provided photos to my dealer. I believe the average customer got one letter from Kioti approximately 12 months after the issue was well documented and about two years before many KL 130 owners got a fix.

You are correct that there was never a catastrophic failure but Kioti hardly deserves kudos for the way they managed this problem.

 

[VictorW]

I must have been lucky. My KL130 loader is a 2005 version and still no cracks with around 500 hours. I don't have the reinforcing kit. I was giving the CK30hst its after working hard this Winter check and removed the inspection plate to check for the cracks. There is not even a crack in the paint to indicate the metal is starting to crack. I've worked the loader hard at times over the past 4 years. They must have made a few good ones.

 

[Renze]

Renze,
I'm unclear on the point of your post. You think Kioti should get us the fix or not? My dealer has been unable to get the kit.

YES, Kioti sold you the product and is responsible, even though they outsourced the loader to a subcontractor. The dealer is just for sales and service, not for engineering and design. They have done right by making the patch kit available as a bolt-on unit, which doesnt require structural design changes to be done by their dealers.
However if your dealer "cant get" the kit, there is something wrong...

However, i still cant imagine why there is so much dust thrown into the air...
In most cases if there was really something wrong, some people would have united and got themself a lawyer...

This is a delicate situation... A good design wont crack, so this leads to warranty claims.
However they do have a point about "cosmetic crack" as it will decrease the torsional stability of the loader a bit, but not to the point of failure.

As an engineer, my gut feeling says that the crack wont get past the edge of the profile because the crack has then past the peak strain area and wont continue.
On the other hand, if i were the designer of that loader, it would itch me at night and i would take it as a personal failure.

 

[northofTO]

Some bad news then some good.
I didn't find this site in time and bought a used ck20 with the old loader, complete with cracks. On the good side the original dealer says they will install the kit as soon as I can get the tractor in there. That's a relief.

 

[IslandTractor]

Some bad news then some good.
I didn't find this site in time and bought a used ck20 with the old loader, complete with cracks. On the good side the original dealer says they will install the kit as soon as I can get the tractor in there. That's a relief.

The cracks are an annoying issue but no one has reported any serious problem as a result of a cracked loader failing. Don't lose any sleep, you have a great tractor.

 

[TBDonnelly]

Hmmm i followed this thread for a while over the past months, but i havent replied yet..

Somebody mentioned business school case study.... I think most moaners in this thread grasp litte about structural engineering as well as business, they just demand beyond reason, and set up a "witch hunt" aimed at Kioti....

Maybe Kioti was a bit late to react to all this madness, but from a business point of view they have made a wise decision: They took responsibility for the problem, and not asked their dealers to weld or drill on the frame, which would mean that they ask their dealers to take responsibility for a fix of Kioti's SUBCONTRACTOR's problem... Kioti itself could impossibly send certified welders from the responsible production subcontractor to all their U.S. customers to fix this.

The patch is aesthetically o.k. but technically looks silly.... Unfortunately, companies cannot decide on technical reasons alone, but also have to weigh product liability reasons in their equasions...
If i had such a loader, i would have voided Kioti's warranty by cutting out a square plate with a hole in it, out of half inch plate, and weld it around the service hatch, to cure the problem at the origin, and even be able to use the original service cover. That would cut me off all future warranty claims, but i am fully qualified to take that risk myself...


....And i still have to see a photo to back up the claims of "catastrophic failure"

Renze, Just when Kioti was hopeful the dust had settled, this thread had been quiet for nearly three months, then you appear with a perfect rendition
of the "armchair quarterback".


Don

 

[Renze]

Renze, Just when Kioti was hopeful the dust had settled, this thread had been quiet for nearly three months, then you appear with a perfect rendition
of the "armchair quarterback".

I work as an engineer in a small company producing heavy wheel loaders in the popular 11 to 18 ton market segment... When the service department has something in the shop, i allways want to watch the cracks and patches, to avoid similar situations in new designs. Last cracked loader was a week ago, but this did not lead to design changes: The loader already earned its share, as it just clocked 18.000 hrs...
However, the commercial customer as a much more realistic approach when things like this happen

 

[Gittyup]

Yeah, well there is a big difference in an industrial machine cracking at 18,0000 hours and a CUT cracking at less than 100 hours! If my loader cracked at say 2000 hours, I wouldn't have a beef. There's a big difference between fatigue cracking and cracking due to faulty design. The original loader suffers from a major design deficiency, period. Cutting a SQUARE opening that spans over 50% of the width ,and accounts for about 25% of the surface area, in a torsion tube? Any engineer knows that's a prescription for problems.

To suggest that Kioti handled this anywhere near properly is just absurb. On a scale of 10 (10 being the best) for providing good, fast, and adequate repair, I'd give Kioti a 3.

I still say new loader arms would not have been a lot more expensive than the "fix" they came up with. When the cost of creating the designs (yes more than one), and the cost of lost business is factored in, I wouldn't be surprise to find that new arms would have actually been the cheaper way to go. They didn't have to replace the cylinders, or the parking stand, or the bucket, or the hardware, just the arms. Given the choice between replacing the arms myself, including switching everything over and that "fix", I'd take the arms for sure.

So TB, those of us with a dog in this race need to speak up when something this obtuse is suggested.

 

[Dodgeram]

I was using my KL-130 yesterday with the forks on to move pallets of stone, probably 7-800 lbs, removed the inspection plate, no cracks.
400+ hours.
Tom

 

[TBDonnelly]

I work as an engineer in a small company producing heavy wheel loaders in the popular 11 to 18 ton market segment... When the service department has something in the shop, i allways want to watch the cracks and patches, to avoid similar situations in new designs. Last cracked loader was a week ago, but this did not lead to design changes: The loader already earned its share, as it just clocked 18.000 hrs...
However, the commercial customer as a much more realistic approach when things like this happen

I'll echo Gittyups sentiments. Your comparisions are so dis-similar it's not even funny. You're trying to put a square peg into a round hole. I'll bet it's not going to take you two years or better to come up with a fix for that commercial grade loader. I'll also bet you'll communicate with the owner throughout the repair process.

I'll also reiterate, IMO, this was a Kioti/Daedong problem, NOT a dealer problem.

And Renze, I've followed your projects here on TBN and don't doubt you're a talented fabricator but in this instance you're out of bounds, like trying to quarterback from the sidelines.

Don

 

[Renze]

Yeah, well there is a big difference in an industrial machine cracking at 18,0000 hours and a CUT cracking at less than 100 hours! If my loader cracked at say 2000 hours, I wouldn't have a beef. There's a big difference between fatigue cracking and cracking due to faulty design. The original loader suffers from a major design deficiency, period. Cutting a SQUARE opening that spans over 50% of the width ,and accounts for about 25% of the surface area, in a torsion tube? Any engineer knows that's a prescription for problems.

You are correct, it is a very unfavourable design, especially when there are welds in the edges of this square opening. The cost price apparently was the main
concern in this design, which is a problem in all homeowners equipment...
When the cracks progress to the edge of the profile, the loader boom will loose a great deal of its torsional stability but also the cracks will stop around there.

So TB, those of us with a dog in this race need to speak up when something this obtuse is suggested.

I just had a hunch that this thread was becoming a diplomatic instrument to put pressure on Kioti... Thats why i wanted to put this into a different perspective.

I'll echo Gittyups sentiments. Your comparisions are so dis-similar it's not even funny. You're trying to put a square peg into a round hole. I'll bet it's not going to take you two years or better to come up with a fix for that commercial grade loader. I'll also bet you'll communicate with the owner throughout the repair process.

Correct, when loaders crack in less than 3000 hrs, our customers KNOW even if they are the only one with this problem, they will at least be met halfway.
In some early models of a newly developed loader in 1998, the torque tube was too weak, causing the frame to twist. Customers who had problems with it, got a new boom with a 4 inch bigger torque tube. Some of those loaders with the early boom design, have clocked 15.000 hrs without problems. It depends so much on the application and operator...

However, you cant expect the durability of a commercial loader, on a machine intended for the home-owner, where fierce competition is on initial purchasing price rather than on overall costs per hour. Thats what i wanted to say, I do not deny that Kioti has messed up big time, but i just wanted to widen the perspective...

 

[TBDonnelly]

I just had a hunch that this thread was becoming a diplomatic instrument to put pressure on Kioti... Thats why i wanted to put this into a different perspective.

Well Renze, there's an old saying, 'day late and a dollar short'. You're closer to 2 years late to be jumping into the sandbox. .....Or maybe your calendar year in Holland is different than ours here in the USA.

Don

 

[IslandTractor]

Well Renze, there's an old saying, 'day late and a dollar short'. You're closer to 2 years late to be jumping into the sandbox. .....Or maybe your calendar year in Holland is different than ours here in the USA.

Don

I wouldn't be hard on him. His was one of the more informed posts even if he is coming to the topic a bit late. And his perception about the post being in large part a means of pressuring Kioti to do the right thing is pretty much on target.

 

[jim_n_nh]

I have followed this post with great interest and something unique to me lately, silence . I had my issues with Kioti and had a thread that was kept alive for nine months till under pressure from Dealers it was removed and I was banned for ten days.

That said, the thread and me contacting dealers halfway across the USA led to a solution that I accepted. Maybe not the best solution but a solution good enough so I would consider buying from Kioti again. When I had a second failure on a 150 hour machine I went to a different dealer who when he saw the machine realized that the previous dealer mis represented my machine and it was in much better shape than described to Kioti iniatially. This led to a rapid response. My wish is to all concerned here they get the same degree of satisfaction that I did.

Jim