Farmtrac - For real?

[NewToy]

I plead guilty to playing the "antiquated" card. I was trying to come up with a more palatable adjective than the overstated "inferior". I suppose they are not the most ergonomic or feature laden CUT's out there but my 270 fits me well.

John

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I plead guilty to playing the "antiquated" card. I was trying to come up with a more palatable adjective than the overstated "inferior". I suppose they are not the most ergonomic or feature laden CUT's out there but my 270 fits me well.

John

And just for the record, I never stated the Farmtrac was inferior. What I stated is this (I added the bold type to highlight the passage but included the surrounding text for context):

I suspect, however, that you do not have much seat time in many different brands, nor many different types of equipment (ag and non-ag) and perhaps that is why some folks can easily see inferior design and others cannot. Truth be told, anyone can get used to anything, but that doesn't mean that what they get used to is as good as something else, it just means they get used to it. Sort of like a "three on the tree" manual transmission versus "4 on the floor" and now that is evolving to 6 speed paddle shifters. All 3 make the car go. Some are smoother, some are more responsive, some are faster to gear, etc. Not trying to lay down insults here, just trying to point out somethings are better than others.

You can clearly see that I was referring to the concept of design in a general way as it related to the personal experience of the operator of a machine, and not pointing it to any specific brand. I then illustrated it with other non-tractor examples.

 

[NewToy]

Symantics that only Ken Starr could decipher. I now ride into the sunset to defend yet another beleaguered brand.
John

 

[MossRoad]

All right folks... that's quite enough.

 

[MossRoad]

I would suggest that anyone that has little to no seat time on other units needs to get their seat time on other units before telling folks that have done their research that they are incorrect.... it makes you look thin skinned.

 

[MossRoad]

I would also suggest that people need to be fiscally responsible and purchase the best machine for the money that they can afford to spend. Sometimes that isn't the "best" machine, but it is a machine for them, none the less. Telling them it is inferior, while technically correct, makes you look like a snob.

 

[MossRoad]

O.K. Who wants to take a shot at me and my Power Trac?

 

[AndyM]

O.K. Who wants to take a shot at me and my Power Trac?

Can I borrow it for a week and try it out?

 

[MossRoad]

Can I borrow it for a week and try it out?

No. But you may come to my property and use it to finish up my land clearing projects. I will pay you in root beer, popsicles and nachos.

 

[Iowachild]

O.K. Who wants to take a shot at me and my Power Trac?

Well do you wear a Timex or a Rolex?

 

[MossRoad]

Well do you wear a Timex or a Rolex?

1800's Elgin pocket watch from my great grandfather.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

O.K. Who wants to take a shot at me and my Power Trac?

David, PT is great machine with lots of utility, but horrible ergonomics. Want to argue that with me? Its not being a snob. You known darn well I tested them, on my property, twice. I've also written pretty extensively on my test of the LG machines. Worked it? Nope. Wasn't impressed enough with it to take it home for a trial. Now the Power Trac, that one I've defended and recommeded dozens of times. Reality is what it is, ergonomics are some of the worst in the industry on a PT. Doesn't make it a bad machine overall. In fact despite its flaws its an amazing workhorse.

FWIW, I wear neither a Rolex nor a Timex.

 

[TBDonnelly]

1800's Elgin pocket watch from my great grandfather.

....but did he eat green bananas when he was your great grandfather?

Don

 

[MossRoad]

David, PT is great machine with lots of utility, but horrible ergonomics. Want to argue that with me? Its not being a snob. You known darn well I tested them, on my property, twice. I've also written pretty extensively on my test of the LG machines. Worked it? Nope. Wasn't impressed enough with it to take it home for a trial. Now the Power Trac, that one I've defended and recommeded dozens of times. Reality is what it is, ergonomics are some of the worst in the industry on a PT. Doesn't make it a bad machine overall. In fact despite its flaws its an amazing workhorse.

FWIW, I wear neither a Rolex nor a Timex.

I found the NH line to have the best ergonmics of all the tractors I tested when shopping. Sweet machines.

Don't want to argue anything. Discuss, yes. Argue, no.

As for ergonomics on the PT specifically, the steering is hard until you add a spinner knob. Then it is quite good, but nothing like power steering. You still have to put some muscle into it. The seat needs to be a suspension seat. Other than that, I have no complaints. Ask me again in a few years and see if I am in physical therapy yet from it.

As for my comments about thinned skinned and snobby, well, you know that was meant to get a rise and it did. I strategically waffled on both sides of the argument, as I frequently do, in order to point out the extreme replies on both sides of the discussion.

Look, I am a die hard Chevy fan. I love em. Heck, I sunk a thousand bucks into my Impala just today on a fuel pump, filter, computer and towing. There are much nicer cars out there, but Chevy is what I like and can afford, so I buy that. At the end of the day(well, any day but yesterday) it still gets me home again. Really, a very expensive car would do the job no differently except it might be a more comfortable ride and cost more to repair should it break.

Same thing with tractors. Then there are things like dealer support, reliability, parts availability, etc... that a buyer must consider when making a purchase. I think some folks rush into a purchase too soon and then regret it or just plain don't know that there may be a better machine for their needs for a better price out there. Personally, I wonder if all these electronic controls on the new tractors will stand the test of time or will Soundguy be laughing hard at any one who bought a tractor with a computer in it!

Bob, you have the facts on the machines. You deliver the facts. Some folks don't like the facts(some folks don't like the delivery, either ) Let the facts stand for what they are. No need to defend the facts. They defend themselves.

As for opinions, we all have those just like we all have something else... personality... what were you thinking?

 

[Charolais]

Moss Road I sure won't take a shot. You brought up some good points.

I've followed this post since it started. Being that I buy and use tractors on the farm I'll make a comment or two.

I've seen and used tractors with all the bells and whistles. I tend to avoid them. I like tractors simple and straight forward. Mainly so I can work on them when they need attention and know what to do to keep them running when I do have a problem.

When I put the PTO in gear, I want to hear the gears make a little noise. I have no need for electric clutches. To much to go wrong when I'm ready to bale hay and rain is close by. example: My good friend and neighbor got to the field to roll hay. Put the PTO in gear(electric),the baler started to turn.Then stopped. He went through the process two more times. Same thing, baler stopped turning. Problem: bad alternator. PTO clutch needs 14 volts to operate. Battery is 12 volts. He drives 54 miles on way to get a new alternator and hay gets wet while he's gone. Next: My 1997 2610 Long while rolling hay blows a fuse. Lost voltage to everything on the dash. Alternator was shot. I saw smoke come out of it. Soooo I just kept rolling hay for the next 3 hours. My hay didn't get wet and I replaced the alternator the next day. My neighbor wouldn't have my Long if I gave it to him. But the old girl has never let me down when I needed it to do the work.

Another good friend tobacco farmer has all JD tractors. They are all of the utility style now. He had enough of sensors going out with work to do, hired help standing around because one of many sensors crapped out and all he could do is stand there and wait. Wait for the mechanic to come and hook up to the processor and see what sensor was bad. He gave it 3 years and the problems got no better. He traded all those bell and whistle tractors in for good old simple tractors. You know, pull the lever and the front end loader goes up. Push it and it goes down. He had enough of the touch button hydraulics that would go hay wire and drop a load on a trailer and such.

Was just reading a thread over on YTMAG last week about the military having old tractors and equipment being rebuilt to factory specs. Seems they don't have time for some of the modern day goodies either. They just need for the machine to work when needed and be able to drop down in the dirt and make a repair on the spot. No time to wait for some one to plug in to find the problem.

Well as I said I have a LONG. I liked it so well I bought a FARMTRAC next. I like them because they are simple. I don't have to wait for someone to plug in to find the problem. I'm a one man operation here and if I don't get it done it doesn't get done. Give me a little gear noise,lever pulling, a hand and foot throttle and I'll make black smoke rise in the air and keep it there one way or the other. And get the job done.

I'm not knocking the goodies. They are nice. I just don't have time to play with them. I have work to do and can't justify the price with my line of farm work. If and when I trade my Long in I'll buy another farmtrac.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I found the NH line to have the best ergonmics of all the tractors I tested when shopping. Sweet machines.

NH does have some of the best layouts, the operator platforms are incredibly user friendly. Control levers with different colors and different shapes makes it easy to identify them by either a quick glance OR by touch. Nobody beats their loaders for ease of use, visibility and productivity (except your PT ). But the newer Deere line is equally impressive in many ways. Of course each model has its own quirks, etc. But Deere did some sweet things on some of their machines like setting the cruise control on the right of the operator so that you can adjust your mower deck height or tiller depth and engage the cruise control all while keeping your hand on the 3pt control lever and your eye on the implement. Of the big 3 brands, the Kubota trails in ergonomics but is still excellent. Some other brands are also.

The key is that good design is not whistles and bells it is the layout and placement of the controls and the comfort, convenience and ease of operation by the operator. Good design can use simple analog gauges. Its about efficient use of the space so that the operator can concentrate on the work and not have to reach to far, or hunt for the controls or mistake one control for another.

 

[MossRoad]

.....The key is that good design is not whistles and bells it is the layout and placement of the controls and the comfort, convenience and ease of operation by the operator. Good design can use simple analog gauges. Its about efficient use of the space so that the operator can concentrate on the work and not have to reach to far, or hunt for the controls or mistake one control for another.....

That is very true. I found all the controls on my old late 70's IH2500b to be very ergonomic except for the loader levers. They were of the type that are way up to the right of the steering wheel. Besides not being a joystick, they were a reach for the operator and it made it impossible to enter or exit the cab on the right side. My 2001 PT425 has a joystick loader valve to the right of the steering wheel, too, but it in no way interferes with entering the operator's seat from either side yet still feels to be in the correct position for me; not a reach at all. One hand on the wheel and one on the joystick and I can run for hours at a time with no problems except getting hungry!

So loader controls can be done corrrectly without interfering with the operator's ability to enter and exit the tractor on both sides and still be in a comfortable position for the operator.

You mentioned loader visibility. That is also important. On the IH, I could barely see the top of the bucket over the front tires by looking out the lower side windows of the cab. The PT has excellent visibility. I can see the entire bucket from the driver's seat. No obstructions at all. Check out the view in this video taken by me while changing from the forks to the small rock bucket. I can see everything. That makes for quick, safe working conditions without having to crane my neck all day looking over a hood. That's why I find the curved loader arms and sloping hoods on the newer tractors a much needed improvement over the straight arms and square hoods. Not as good as my Power Trac, of course, but a step in the correct direction.

 

[Dallas_Lilly]

I have a hard time with why all the egronomics matter. Most people I see on TBN are part timers and seem to operate their tractor 100 hours a year. That is not very much time in the grand scheme of things. Egronomics may be important in the vehicle that I drive 20,000 miles a year, but not in my tractor. I am not saying this just because I own one of the machines (Montana) in question here. I admit that it would be real nice on my tractor to exit and enter the right side but for the quantity of times I exit and enter, I can walk behind the tractor to get to the other side. Now a landscaper, farmer or somebody else that spends hours a day on the tractor I could see the point of egronomics. BTW I know that I made some spelling errors in here, what happened to the spell check?

 

[MossRoad]

You have a good point about low hour users and ergonomics. While I do not put many total hours on my tractor per year, I frequently put 4-5 hours on it in one day. At the end of the day, it can take its toll. Especially a hard seat or a lever that you have to reach uncomfortably far for. If the manufacturers have the ability to place controls in better locations without adding huge costs to the machines they should do it.

We test drove a few different cars several years ago. A Caddy STS, a big Buick and a Chevy Impala. The Caddy had the nicest ride of any car I was ever in. It just sat on the road and the bumps melted away. The Buick was pretty nice, too. The Chevy was noticably rougher. All three were the same price. We bought the Chevy. Why? Because I couldn't fit comfortably in driver's seat of the nicer riding cars. Not enough leg room for the driver. And if I had the driver's seat all the way back, an adult couldn't fit in the back seat. The rougher riding Chevy won out due to ergonomics. I couldn't believe it. Looking at the cars side by side you would swear the Chevy was the smallest, but it was the only one I could sit in comfortably.

Same thing goes for tractors. Go around to dealers and just sit on tractors for a few minutes. Imagine yourself mowing or doing hard FEL work. Reach for the controls and see if they are close by or you have to stretch to reach them. Do you sit upright or leaned back? Do you have to move side to side to see the FEL bucket or sit up higher to look over the hood? Is it easy to get in and out of? Can you see the 3PT hitch from the seat or do you have to practically 'bail out' backwards to get a view of it? Stuff like that adds wear and tear to your body, even with occasional use.

 

[dbear]

I still don't see how you guys can say that ergonomics are black and white. People are different sizes and shapes. And although I'm repeating myself, what you find comfortable, I may not. If there is any clear-cut "fact" regarding ergonomics, that's it; pure and simple. All the rest is gray.