Farmall 200 distributor question

[8ntractorjdx]

Without your help I would have never come this far. thank you. I will reset it tomorrow. Is there any trick to timing without a light. I dont want to hurt the tractor any more than I already have. Once I get the tractor running I will take off the valve cover and adjust the valve clearance. I will also check the compression warm and with oil to see if it is the rings. Maybe 2 has a bent pushrod ; ) I doubt that anything is set too tight. i do not think the last owner did anything but add fuel and change the oil which he told me he got for free. When i greased the front spindle water came out the top. thank you again dj54.

 

[DJ54]

Without a light, what you did before is about as good as it gets. Just get it on the right mark, and you'll be good. The centrifugal spark advance will take care of the rest of it, if you're on the 22º mark.

If you have a pin type feeler gauge, it would be best to use that. More than likely the side that contacts the valve will be slightly worn like a horse shoe. A flat blade gauge will ride on the outside, and not in the middle where it needs to be. If you don't have that type, you can get by for now. It is better to have them set a tad loose, than tight. If they are too tight, it could cause them to not completely seat, and cause them to burn. More so on the exhaust.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

Well I set the tractor at the second mark and ran it. the good news is it has more power and does not stall when I raise the loader or raise the back blade or back up it seems to have more power the bad news is it is not running as smooth and there is still exhaust coming from the oil filler It sounds like a miss. or like it just is not right. I cannot figure out how to attach a 7 second video. I tried mp4 and vid files but they will not load. I think if you heard it you might know what is wrong.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

hope this works video of tractor not running well. While I had the distributor off I checked the springs and weights and they were quite rusty. I sprayed and drained them several times with deep creep and wd 40 and now I think you can actually hear the weights moving when the tractor is running. not sure how to proceed I ran the tractor for abut 5 minutes and pulled the plugs 1-3 look good just a little brown residue 4 looked black like it had carbon on it. Not sure why there is air coming from the breather tube is there some form of pcv on these old tractors that could be plugged?

 

[DJ54]

Nope, no PCV system on them, other than what you've got. Sounds like it's time to pull the valve cover. Start it up with it removed, and you should be able to see where it's coming from. Whether from around a valve guide, or back up through the oil return ports.

My hearing isn't the best, but sounded like a valve hissing. Could be you've got a stuck valve. weak or broken valve spring. Could even be a push rod has dropped out of one of the rocker arms. It might be a good idea to visually inspect each rocker arm, and push rod before starting it. If every thing looks OK, then start it at a low idle, and have a good look. I'd pay particular attention to #4 and #2 cylinders. #4, due to carbon on the plug, and #2, due to the lower compression.

You may need to try using the "Go Advanced" feature @ below right of this reply box. Not sure what all types can be downloaded that way, but some are listed.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

ok I pulled the hood and the valve cover and attemped to adjust the valve lash. since the last time I adjusted this I was still in high school I did not make big adjustments. I ran the engine for about 5 minutes so I used .016 instead of .014 on several of the I did not have to adjust at all. .016 was very close. On number 4 the final lifter was completely closed and the nut was loose. so that one I opened to .016 the motor seems to be running ok but it sounds like it cuts out for of a couple of seconds then catches up again. It also backfires once in a while?


Ben

 

[DJ54]

If that is still the old distributor, there may be enough slop in it, it may not be opening the points equally at each firing interval. Even if you checked each lobe static, doesn't mean that's what it is when running. A dwell meter on it when running would show you that.

I can't open your video, because it says to sign in to see it. You 'll probably have to set it to public, for it to open here.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

thank you again DJ 54 I think the video will work now. Ironically when I bought the tractor it idled and ran well and the engine sounded good until I put a load on it. Then it would almost die.The point gap was close to .030 and the points were badly burned. So i think the issue is still in the timing. or in where I put the distributor when I put it back in. I understand that I may have to buy a new distributor but would like to get the tractor running as well as it was before I make that purchase. thank you again for all of your help.

just want to make sure cyl 1 is closest to the radiator correct?

 

[DJ54]

Yes, cyl. #1 is nearest the radiator. I have a few more questions.

Are the points in it, the ones that were badly burned..?? If so, a new set could make a world of difference.

What did you set the points at..?? They should be .020. That would make a BIG difference, throwing the dwell off. Dwell will change the timing, but timing will not change the dwell. Might be an idea to invest in a new set. Get a decent set, like OEM's, or from NAPA, and don't go the cheap route. The rub blocks on the cheap set wear, or partially bend way sooner than a good set.

One other thing. Check the plug wires, that you didn't pull the end that connect to the plug, back into the boot. They should have a light snap to them when you put them on the plugs. Depends on how tight they are I guess. And copper core wires are the best to use on them. My one C's set has been on since '75, and the other ones since the late 80's.

And if that is the cap that came on it, look inside at the lugs, and look for a carbon buildup from ionization. If the lugs are aluminum, they will get a whitish/green deposit on them. If brass, it will be a dark colored. This buildup can be scraped off with you pen knife. I can tell when my Su C's get that buildup without even looking. They will get a blubber type miss to them, similar to what you're getting. I've been using the same cap,and scraping it for 25 years now. Still runs great.

Video plays fine now. Sounds like you're close, but just not getting good fire. Never thoughto ask if you checked the color of the spark. It should be a blueish/white color. If it's a faint yellowish orange, that is a sign of weak spark. And a weak spark will cause a poor fuel ignition.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

thank you for writing back. I did put in new points from napa and gapped them at .020 new condenser and rotor also. I just tried scraping the distributor cap. I reset the timing per your instructions the spark is yellow from the plug best I can tell but it is bright sunshine. I had trouble getting a spark and realized I was out of ajustment before I could get the points to open. so I moved the distributor 1 tooth. and noticed that the rotor has a lot of rotation. once I got is running i just played with turning the distributor. If I turn it clockwise I can get the engine to run much better. I was worried about doing damage having the timing in the wrong place so I went thru the process of finding the timing again with the number one plug. I am looking for a timing light. is it ok to move the distributor clockwise or can I break a rod of something under load? what causes a weak spark? thanks again for your help. If I can get the tractor to run at least decent and use it for a while while I absorb the cost of the brakes, alternator and bracket, air cleaner, tune up, gauges I will look at buying a distributor. or maybe I should bite the bullet and just buy the distributor and be done with it. is the rotational play normal for the rotor. I think that is the spring and the weights at work but I am not sure. thanks

Ben

 

[DJ54]

Being the distributor turns clockwise, and your turning it clockwise, you're retarding it, so it shouldn't hurt anything. What the hey, turn it to where it sounds good, and see what happens.

The manuals I have skip the 200 - 230 series. I have one for the Super C, then skips to the C-123's for the 140, 240, etc. So not real sure when they changed the timing. If it runs well at TDC, go for it. If it's too far advanced, it will be firing, nearly before the intake valve closes. Could be why you're getting a little poof, when it runs.

I keep forgetting that it has been converted to 12V. Does it have a ballast resistor on it..?? It should look similar to the one in the photo I attached. It should be, depending on how they set it up, ahead of the original 6V coil, or in between a new 12V coil, and the distributor. Most newer 12V system gas tractors started on giving 12V to the points on startup bypassing the OEM ballast resistor, to give it a good hot spark to start. Then once the key, or starter button was released, current went through the ballast resistor, reducing voltage to 6V, to make the points last longer. If you can't find one on there, it'd be an idea to get one. They are about $10.00. If not, your new points will look like the one's you replaced in short time.




There shouldn't be much rotation in the rotor. Could be the pin through the drive gear is getting loose. Guess that could be determined if you have it out again, grabbing the drive gear in one hand, and the rotor button in the other, and turning one end, and see where the slop is.

I feel bad, because I may have you more confused than ever...

 

[8ntractorjdx]

Certainly do not feel bad I am very grateful for your help and the tractor is getting better. I bought a service manual on line download today. It is a BEST series. They say for the 200 to set the number one plug like you told me at tdc then turn the distributor the same direction as the cam(i assume the counter clockwise same as the pulley) 30 degrees then use a timing light to the 30 degree Btdc line on the pulley at fast idle (what ever that means) It sounds like the same thing you told me to do just starting at the 30 degree btdc line. The tractor does have a Ballast resistor. It looks like it is broken in several places. I did move the distributor clockwise and it made a big difference it is a long way from running well but it will at least keep running. The distrbutor was very rusted inside it is missing the cover between the points and the rotor. there is a roll pin in the gear. I did use a considerable amount of deep creep and wd40 on the advance but it seemed to loosen up and the springs were not broken. i could pull it and check again the rotor has at least 1/8 turn of rotation. thank you again for your help. Not really sure what the next move should be.

 

[DJ54]

At this point, me neither. At least you have a manual to go by now. Wow, and 1/8 of as turn is a lot.

If you do come up with a timing light, and once you get it set, you can rev the engine up, and see if the advance works. IF you have a long enough arm to hold the timing light, and reach the throttle too.

You'll get it, hang in there. Keep us posted..!!

 

[8ntractorjdx]

I will thank you again. The hydraulic fluid is red. do you know of a red hydraulic fluid or do you think the last owner used transmission fluid. if it is atf is that ok?

 

[DJ54]

The old original Hy-Tran was red, back in the 60's. Not sure about the ATF in the hydraulics. ATF is pretty high detergent, and not sure what it would do to the pump. But apparently it has been in there for a while. I'd say use your own judgement. Personally, I'd probably switch it out if it is in fact ATF, but that's me.

If you do, save the ATF. Mix it 50/50 with Acetone, and you'll have some great penetrating oil. The mixture needs to be kept in something air tight, so the Acetone won't evaporate. I use a dish detergent bottle to mix mine up in. Beats PB Blaster & Kroil, hands down.

 

[8ntractorjdx]

thank you again for all of your help I will post again when I get a timing light and the other repairs are made. thank you

 

[8ntractorjdx]

Just an update -- Set the timing to TDC and moved the dist until the motor just sounded better. Still not great but a long way from where we started. thanks again DJ54

 

[DJ54]

Sounded like it throttled up nice. Yeah, there is still something there I can quite put my finger on. Could be exhaust valves, or rings on the one cylinder that had low compression.

Not sure what grades of gasoline you have there, or if they add ethanol there too. I use mid grade, 89 octane in mine. Had a fuel dealer tell a buddy of mine, that they add more ethanol in the low grade, 87 octane here. It will show too, if not working it too hard, the plugs will carbon up. And my 656 will foul plugs
on the 87.

Run it, and see what happens. Maybe it just need a good workout..!!

 

[8ntractorjdx]

Hello DJ56

Yes I am running lowest grade for the lawn mower. I actually ran out of fuel when I first got it. there is no sediment bulb only a filter. the air cleaner has no oil bath on it. I will pick up some more gas. I worked it this morning it is considerably better but still not right. at full throttle it can spin the tires without dying on wet grass. which is a big improvement. When I adjusted the valves I noticed some of the rockers are badly worn not sure if the valves should be set to the high spot or the low spot. the high spot seems to be missing the lifter.If it moves enough to hit the high spot i think it will break a pushrod. I am waiting for brake parts and an air filter oil cup and the alternator is at the shop. the next time I run out of gas I will try to clean the tank a little and change the gas filter add the air filter and change the oil back to dino oil from the synthetic oil he has in there. I think the tractor will work ok I would like to get it running as well as possible without putting a ton of money in it. I just will not use it enough to warrant spending a bunch on it and I have a lot of other work to do. thanks again for your help

 

[DJ54]

I'll assume you're using a flat blade feeler gauge to set the valves. It will be bridging across the high parts of the worn rocker, so the valve will actually be a little looser than the .014". Better a little loose, than tight.

Somewhere around here, I've got an old wire, or pin type feeler gauge, made specifically for what you are dealing with. I got it in a bunch of tune up tools years ago at an auction. Pretty handy for adjusting the worn rockers. I tried to find a new one online, but seems the smallest gauge anymore is .020.

If it's been ran without the oil cup on the breather for a while, it may be an idea to remove the canister, and dip in in some sort of cleaning solution. It's bound to be packed with dust & dirt. Some sort of water based degreaser/detergent in a 5 gallon bucket, and let it soak for a bit, then wash/rinse out, and let it dry.

There will be a fill line on the cup for the oil level. And I just put in the cup, whatever I use in the engine.