ethanol

[CurlyDave]

The reason that Brazil fuels 85% of its vehicles with Ethanol is because they didn't listen to the naysayers that didn't think it would work.

The real reason Brazil fuels its vehicles with ethanol is that the country is on the equator, and it is easy to grow sugar cane. The sugar is turned into ethanol by fermentation. Sugar cane loves sunlight and the further you get from the equator the more costly the sugar is to produce. Somewhere around the latitude of mid-Florida sugar cane becomes so costly to produce, it simply isn't grown.

Sugar beets can be grown further north, but that sugar is more costly than the sugar made from cane close to the equator.

What works in Brazil doesn't work in the US.

I have a lot of hope for ethanol from cellulose, but it is going to take a while.

 

[AMP762]

I would rather eat my corn(or drink it) leave my food source alone.I can quit driving,I need food.

 

[JohnBarlow]

Even if that is true that is a 10% reduction of imported energy. That is a big deal in my book considering that ethanol production is in it's infancy compared to the dino gasoline production.

If we convert all the worlds agricultural output for one year to bio-fuel, we would make 10% of the crude oil currently consumed each year, and make no food. For U.S. specific numbers, check out The Oil Drum | Peak Oil Media: Food v. (Bio)fuel, Fast Money saying "It's Supply, Stupid" and Cramer on Ending the Ethanol Mandate - algae would seem to hold the best promise.

We assume the gravy-train of cheap energy will not stop - but the "reality" train station is fast approaching. Look at every way you can to reduce your energy usage. That is the best way to provide a future for our children, and to reduce our dependence on overseas oil.

Lastly, the problem is not just fuel - half of the crude oil extracted from the ground is used as a chemical soup, making plastics, glues, paints, cosmetics, _half of all western medicines_ , roads (tar), and more.

It's hard to imagine how the fan will keep turning after all the sh*t hits it!

 

[Duffster]

Unless the technology improves it will show them nothing. Currently it takes 9 unit of fuel to make 10 units of ethanol. The impact on food prices and environment (like erosion and fertilizer run off) isn't worth the 10% yield.
There are new cellulose-based processes in the development though. May be then it will have some impact.

If we convert all the worlds agricultural output for one year to bio-fuel, we would make 10% of the crude oil currently consumed each year, and make no food. For U.S. specific numbers, check out The Oil Drum | Peak Oil Media: Food v. (Bio)fuel, Fast Money saying "It's Supply, Stupid" and Cramer on Ending the Ethanol Mandate - algae would seem to hold the best promise.

We assume the gravy-train of cheap energy will not stop - but the "reality" train station is fast approaching. Look at every way you can to reduce your energy usage. That is the best way to provide a future for our children, and to reduce our dependence on overseas oil.

Lastly, the problem is not just fuel - half of the crude oil extracted from the ground is used as a chemical soup, making plastics, glues, paints, cosmetics, _half of all western medicines_ , roads (tar), and more.

It's hard to imagine how the fan will keep turning after all the sh*t hits it!

The problem is that ethanol will not decrease fuel import by 10% even if all corn is used for its production. But if we produce fuel from some waste (like Brazil uses waste from sugar production) it will make difference. In ex. fuel from corn stalks. Currently if you burn corn you get at least three times the energy than in ethanol produced from the same mass of corn. Therefore if all oil and gas burning furnaces were converted to burning corn or another pellets made from some waste it will have greater impact than ethanol fuel.

I wasn't trying to say it reduce the entire amount imported by 10%

Just that if Rednecks original post of it taking 9 units of fuel to make 10 units of Ethanol was true than that is a 10% reduction

 

[Duffster]

Not necessarily, there has to be a beginning to everything. Not every good idea has already been fully formed, fleshed out, and if viable made into a full blown industry.

Cellulosic butanol is NOT ready for prime time, yet, but is being pursued, just not vigorously enough because... well we don't really need it do we since we have the super green save the world corn to ethanol, gasohol, and E85!

The ethanol scam is wasting our time and resources, diverting attention from where it makes more sense in the long run.

Pat

Where does your negative attitude towards ethanol come from?

If Butanol from cornstalks would work than that would be a perfect compliment to corn ethanol.

If butanol from any source works that is great but IMO "hay" based fuel will never work in mass production.

 

[vsteel]

Just to clear up something.

The rate of return on corn 1:7
The rate of return on silage (corn and plant) 1:10
The rate of return on sugar cane 1:14
The rate of return on switch grass 1:17
Rate of return means 1 gallon of diesel gives X number of ethanol.
Those numbers came from successful farming in 2007.

Ethanol at 10% is HUGE for fuel but not as a replacement for gas but as an octane booster and for emissions reductions.