ethanol

   / ethanol #31  
I'm all for and believe we can have sustainable energy. I also think it is unfortunate that we have been and continue to waste so much on the misguided process we have with corn to ethanol. Cellulosic butanol is just one of many viable replacements for corn to ethanol. Viable IF we can depoliticize it and wean the corn farmers off welfare and get ADM and the rest out of policy making for us.

If crab grass and rag weed could yield bio diesel at prices near petro diesel I'm all for it. Id be happy to burn powdered jalapeno peppers if it got the job done and didn't wreck the environment or enriched foreign interests to the detriment of the US.

Pat
 
   / ethanol #32  
The problem is that ethanol will not decrease fuel import by 10% even if all corn is used for its production. But if we produce fuel from some waste (like Brazil uses waste from sugar production) it will make difference. In ex. fuel from corn stalks..

The energy isn't in the stalks

Currently if you burn corn you get at least three times the energy than in ethanol produced from the same mass of corn. Therefore if all oil and gas burning furnaces were converted to burning corn or another pellets made from some waste it will have greater impact than ethanol fuel.

2/3 of the corn is left as feed when you make ethanol

We have plenty of NG for furnaces thats why we make ethanol for cars
 
   / ethanol #33  
The energy isn't in the stalks



2/3 of the corn is left as feed when you make ethanol

We have plenty of NG for furnaces thats why we make ethanol for cars

Not much of the starch (what gets converted to ethanol) is in the stalks but the stalks are cellulose rich and could be processed for cellulosic butanol. Butanol is superior to ethanol in several ways for motor fuel.

Pat
 
   / ethanol #34  
Unfortunately ethanol is a boondoggle. Ethanol production from corn is a subsidized program that basically, at the bottom line, takes taxpayers $ and gives it to the methanol industry AND corn farmers. When all is said and done and you account for all the petroleum consumption in the production and distribution of ethanol (including but not limited to fertilizer, farmers diesel, transport diesel, and so forth, there is very little (some say if any) net gain.

Corn to ethanol serves as a means of diverting $ to farmers who in turn support the politicians who support the program. It also diverts lots of taxpayer's $ to the big ag outfits like ADM (Archer Daniels Midland: A Case Study In Corporate Welfare) who also support the politicians that keep the system in place.

This cabal is self serving and cares not one wit about reducing dependence on foreign oil and barely if at all results in a reduction of foreign oil consumption.

I'm all for sustainable renewable energy resources but ethanol from corn IS NOT IT. It is a travesty perpetuated through greed and influence. The public is deluded. Some of us like to "FEEL GREEN" and don't want to admit the Emperor is naked.

As for every little bit helps... Think of this. You are on the Titanic, it is sinking, the band is playing, some misguided do gooder organizes a bucket brigade and gets all the passengers and ships personnel to participate in the bucket brigade using a couple sewing thimbles for buckets. Hours pass and the members of the bucket brigade are bathed in sweat regardless of the chilly outside temps and are fatigued to the point of collapsing from exhaustion. Through their industrious and selfless participation they have: 1. slowed the sinking by less than a second, and 2. diverted every willing participant from doing something that might actually save some lives.

Corn to ethanol is like that. So long as the majority think it is "GREEN" and a good thing (while it actually is neither) there is insufficient impetus to get better processes in place. Processes such as cellulose to butanol for example. Butanol is much closer to gasoline in its attributes than ethanol, more energy density than ethanol BUT it would be made from cellulose. The early voting Iowa farmers and ADM don't have a lock on cellulose production. the Politicians in this cabal would lose their guaranteed votes and support because there are so many alternative sources for cellulose: scrap wood, grass, brush, recycled paper, and on and on.

I would just love to be able to run my vehicles on renewable green resource derived motor fuels and am willing to pay some premium to be able to do it. I'd be happy to see the US not import a single drop of petroleum and watch the attitudes of certain near eastern countries change. Unfortunately ethanol is NOT going to git 'er done.

Pat

Many of the taxes incentives that you mention have long expired.

Also when the prices of corn is up the farmers isn't subsidized.

Cellulose will probably never work simply because there is no infrastructure or existing crop base. If there is no demand for the crop who is going to plant it?
On the otherside if there is no crop how can you guild a plant to make fuel out of it?
 
   / ethanol #35  
Not much of the starch (what gets converted to ethanol) is in the stalks but the stalks are cellulose rich and could be processed for cellulosic butanol. Butanol is superior to ethanol in several ways for motor fuel.

Pat

Don't you think if this option was even the least bit viable (profitable) it would already be in production?

One of the big reasons ethanol took off is because the farmers put there own money into building the facilities to produce it.
 
   / ethanol #37  
Many of the taxes incentives that you mention have long expired.

Also when the prices of corn is up the farmers isn't subsidized.

Cellulose will probably never work simply because there is no infrastructure or existing crop base. If there is no demand for the crop who is going to plant it?
On the otherside if there is no crop how can you guild a plant to make fuel out of it?

Remind me, what specific tax incentive(s) did I mention?

No existing crop base? Depends on economical and useful source of cellulose which is in weeds, grass, and lots of "waste" like straw, corn stalks, brush and on and on. Just because there is no powerful political cabal lobbying for it and it doesn't serve the vested interest of BIG agribusiness or the poor downtrodden farmers of the early voting state doesn't mean there is no source. There are lots of sources and it is pretty easy to grow "STUFF" for its cellulose content on otherwise marginal land with little or no petrochemical fertilizers BUT it is not under the control of the afore mentioned interests so it gets little consideration by the self serving politicians getting campaign money from ADM and the votes of those tapped into Uncle Sugar on the Government dole so to speak producing feedstock for the ethanol scam.

E85 is a bad joke. It may give somewhat cleaner emissions than pure gasoline but not particularly better than butanol. At best E85 will fill a small fraction of the US motor fuel needs. It is a red herring which keeps the political clout where some want it AND gee isn't it better than doing nothing.(see previous example about bailing the Titanic with a thimble.) Well maybe so but not much and certainly isn't better than other alternatives. E85 is hard to reliably find out of the upper midwest and your reward for finding it is lowered fuel economy. Once again the Government is trying to HELP US. The Government support for flex-fuel vehicles which can use E85 is indirectly causing more gasoline consumption rather than less. The advertising of flex fuel vehicles (FFV) in most of the country is currently an empty promise.

Lets not confuse noise and motion for progress.

Pat
 
   / ethanol #38  
Don't you think if this option was even the least bit viable (profitable) it would already be in production?

Not necessarily, there has to be a beginning to everything. Not every good idea has already been fully formed, fleshed out, and if viable made into a full blown industry.

Cellulosic butanol is NOT ready for prime time, yet, but is being pursued, just not vigorously enough because... well we don't really need it do we since we have the super green save the world corn to ethanol, gasohol, and E85!

The ethanol scam is wasting our time and resources, diverting attention from where it makes more sense in the long run.

Pat
 
   / ethanol #40  
Thanks for the tip to purchase several tanks to get the computer system operating properly.

I'm with you on helping this country instead of the middle east. I live in the middle of corn country and I like the additional market for their corn crop.

I will try some E85 again this summer.


kj
 

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