Electrical code & "Grandfather clause"

[raykos]

Recently I've had to build a new home for my tractor, JD 2305. What I've built is a 24x40 combination 2 car garage/tractor shop, 24x24/16x24,(pictures to follow at a later date). I've also wired in a auxillary electrical box & circuits, which has passed the rough inspection. The inspector said he would need to also look at the main panel when he comes back for the final inspection.

My house was built in '68 and the wiring is not real pretty; what I'm worried about is if the inspector comes back for the garage final and says my 200 amp service is not up to code because the wires aren't coming into the box as straight lines, right angles, etc.; however, it did pass inspection in '68. Does anybody know if there's such a thing as a "grandfather's clause" in the electrical code? Something to the effect that since the box passed inspection in '68 it's still OK; or are we going to have to spend a whole lot of money on rewiring just to make it look good?

 

[Mousefield]

I have done a lot of my own wiring and putting in panels in my barn and chicken coop. Always had a licensed electrician inspect and turn it on.
If the inspector asks you to change something in your main panel I don't think it will be to "pretty" it up, it will be a safety issue, that may not be a bad thing.

 

[whitedogone]

"Pretty" ain't in the NEC. If there are major "issues" why wouldn't you want to correct them anyway? If issues are just minor ones, (I.E.-- were installed per code back when they were put in) I can't see making someone rework those. Just remember, the inspector is there to protect you, your family, and your home.

 

[Artisan]

"Messy" usually means whoever did it did not have a full commad of the trade.
That will never change. Guys who know what there doing strive to be neat
and clean and run there stuff correctly. DIY = DIY expect what you get.
More than likely he wants to make sure your not overloading the panel
or doing something your not supposed to do. "I" would have asked him to
look at it right then and there. Even if he finds something is not right and
it was inspected in 68' means nothing. I see this all the time w/
contractors whom are less then forthright. "IT PASSED INSPECTION!"
they proclaim, so it is A-OK! NOT ON YOUR LIFE should anyone believe
that!
Understand that means NOTHING except the inspector looked at it
validating the money they TOOK from you. Sure there are a few good
inspectors here and there but they are FAR and FEW between. I see
inspectors "APPPROVE" illegal work REGULARLY. Since the advent of the
"Combination" inspector the process has gone to pot. No One Man knows
it all, heck, I am a plumbing contractor and I do not know it all, you need
to wakeup VERY early in the morning to get over on me but I don't know
it all. How can a combo roofing, electrical, structural, plumbing etc
inspector, how can ANYONE expect it to be "inspected" to the MINIMUM
Standards that codes demand? Remember, codes are MIMIMUM
Standards. So you get inspectors who let things go UNDER Minimum's? Be
afraid, be very afraid...

If there is something wrong it needs to be fixed. Trying to save a buck
over safety can land you in serious ship.

PS, Codes change as well. Cloth covered wires exposed and run with
porcelin insulators passed inspection 50+ years ago, not now.

 

[retiredmgn]

"Messy" usually means whoever did it did not have a full commad of the trade.
That will never change. Guys who know what there doing strive to be neat
and clean and run there stuff correctly. DIY = DIY expect what you get.
More than likely he wants to make sure your not overloading the panel
or doing something your not supposed to do. "I" would have asked him to
look at it right then and there. Even if he finds something is not right and
it was inspected in 68' means nothing. I see this all the time w/
contractors whom are less then forthright. "IT PASSED INSPECTION!"
they proclaim, so it is A-OK! NOT ON YOUR LIFE should anyone believe
that!
Understand that means NOTHING except the inspector looked at it
validating the money they TOOK from you. Sure there are a few good
inspectors here and there but they are FAR and FEW between. I see
inspectors "APPPROVE" illegal work REGULARLY. Since the advent of the
"Combination" inspector the process has gone to pot. No One Man knows
it all, heck, I am a plumbing contractor and I do not know it all, you need
to wakeup VERY early in the morning to get over on me but I don't know
it all. How can a combo roofing, electrical, structural, plumbing etc
inspector, how can ANYONE expect it to be "inspected" to the MINIMUM
Standards that codes demand? Remember, codes are MIMIMUM
Standards. So you get inspectors who let things go UNDER Minimum's? Be
afraid, be very afraid...

If there is something wrong it needs to be fixed. Trying to save a buck
over safety can land you in serious ship.

PS, Codes change as well. Cloth covered wires exposed and run with
porcelin insulators passed inspection 50+ years ago, not now.

This should be a Sticky.

 

[brin]

This should be a Sticky.

I completely agree...great post...Safety first and all points well stated.

 

[mjw357]

And don't forget, just because a 40-something year old home passed inspection with flying colors when built, doesn't mean a previous home owner didn't come in and bugger something up somewhere.

 

[schmism]

The inspector said he would need to also look at the main panel when he comes back for the final inspection.

Its my understanding that if the work he is inspecting is outside the perview of the permit for the work required, they cant make you update it.

In other words, as long as you followed code with installing the new breaker, and wireing, the other wirieng and breakers should be outside his perview.

In short, he cant go claiming you have to rewire the entire house because you added the breaker for the new barn.

 

[strum456]

One thing they will probably try to get changed is the separation of neutrals and grounds. Now days the inspectors like to see the grounds all one one side and then neutrals on the other. I doubt the OPs breaker box was done this way back in the 60s. Should he change it all just to make it neat and in compliance with the new code?

A stupid technicality like that could cost him a complete rewire, or else a bunch of splices in the box. Either option is rediculous in my opinion.

 

[Artisan]

Its my understanding that if the work he is inspecting is outside the perview of the permit for the work required, they cant make you update it.

In other words, as long as you followed code with installing the new breaker, and wireing, the other wirieng and breakers should be outside his perview.

In short, he cant go claiming you have to rewire the entire house because you added the breaker for the new barn.

Don't count on it.

If the "Administrative Authority" strolls on to your property to inspect your
widget and they see an "issue" totally not related, but under his scope of
"work" he can cause you great grief, including but not limited to, red
tagging the property and forcing you to leave, exceptions to all rules they seem to have too!

Case and point; I had an inspector out to my own property to look at
something non electrical related and "she" saw a totally unrelated wire
draped over and electrical fixture. She said "You need to fix that." I said
"No, I will not, it is low voltage and you have no authority regarding said
" to wit she walked off in a huff, AFTER approving my original request.

Caveat Emptor

 

[yelbike]

Good posts so far.

I'm an electrical and HVAC contractor in Canada, so the rules may change. If the issues are unrelated to the permit then he can't make you change it. If he does notice something that isn't right, why would you not want to correct it?

A common easily noticed thing I see in homes all the time is plastic dryer venting. Easy fix but a far too common fire risk.:mur:

 

[jonyyuma]

Wow, I love to read about all other persons views on electrical work....Grandfathered in does not exist in this area.If it was done wrong or does not meet the current code then they can pull your meter, if that does not stop you then they will drop the service.. Did you ever stop to think about some of the electrical equipment that was installed, BACK IN THE DAY, having been proven to be a problem..Years ago it was copper clad wiring and or Aluminum wiring..Stab-loc, or....There are panels and breakers that have been proven to be Fire hazards...It is illegal here to Tap the meter, if you don't know what that means get HELP...If you have a suspicious fire, then they can point at your electrical work..Your Insurance , IF you have any, will be certain to be there watching for an reason.???

 

[strum456]

If there are safety issues such as unsafe breakers, overloaded circuits/wires and missing or bad grounds, these things should be fixed regardless. Unfortunately, many of the codes have very little to do with safety and completely overrule common sense.

Example:

We installed a farmstead entrance on our pole below the meter to supply our garage, barn and house. Even though the house had been safely running on the same wire for years, they made us put in a whole new entrance for the house. Their reasoning: we had a 200 amp breaker being fed with a wire rated for 150 amps. Our house definitely does not use that amount of current, but we needed a big box just to fit all of the different circuits. A 150 amp main breaker is not available for our box for a reasonable price (or we would have just changed it).


Yes, I understand the concept....the breaker is to protect the wire, bla bla bla. The hypocrisy: What does the power company use to supply our meter??? 2 gauge copper. So, they are allowed to run a 125 amp Garage, a 60 amp barn, and a 200 amp house off of number 2, but we have to run OOO for our house alone? When we asked them about it, they said #2 is the biggest they ever put up. And for the EEs out there, yes, this is after the transformer, and yes I understand that free air codes are different. This is still a crock of you know what!


No, we were not grandfathered.

 

[BeezFun]

There's no telling what an inspector will look at or do. My personal experience is inspectors bring zero value to ensuring that anything is safe or done right. If you doubt the safety of your installation, or the inspector challenges something, ask a licensed electrician to come and look at it, pay them to make the case with the inspection office. Sometimes when a professional tells them they're full of it they'll just go away.

 

[Little_Grizzly]

My personal experience having a professional's work inspected as well as my own, if the work is extremely neat and orderly they are "less" likely to dig deeper. If they see a rat's nest then they are going to go looking at all the nitty gritty. Notice I put "less" in quotes. Every single inspector is different. THAT you can take to the bank.

 

[whitedogone]

Its my understanding that if the work he is inspecting is outside the perview of the permit for the work required, they cant make you update it.

In other words, as long as you followed code with installing the new breaker, and wireing, the other wirieng and breakers should be outside his perview.

In short, he cant go claiming you have to rewire the entire house because you added the breaker for the new barn.

Ding, Ding, Ding


You are correct, Sir.

 

[whitedogone]

And the bashing of all Inspectors goes on and on at this site as it does in my daily life. I still try my best to make the built enviroment a safer place on a daily basis. And you all wonder why some inspectors seem a bit like Aholes. If you had a clue at the # of morons they encounter on a daily basis you might have a somewhat different view.

 

[frischtr]

"Pretty" ain't in the NEC.

Technically, it is.

Article 110 Requirements for Electrical Installations

110.12: "Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner."

Obviously this is a very subjective sentence. That being said, I've only ever seen one installation failed for violating that clause. I've seen a few others that should have been.

 

[whitedogone]

There's no telling what an inspector will look at or do. My personal experience is inspectors bring zero value to ensuring that anything is safe or done right. If you doubt the safety of your installation, or the inspector challenges something, ask a licensed electrician to come and look at it, pay them to make the case with the inspection office. Sometimes when a professional tells them they're full of it they'll just go away.

Just because an electrician is licensed doesn't mean they know how to do all things correctly everytime. I look at at least 20 residential services a week. About 3/4's of them are done by licensed contractors. I still have those contractors make corrections regularly. It just amazes me how many still can't figure out that you have to: bond at the SERVICE! , how many will try to bond BOTH ends of a metal conduit on the line side of the first disconnecting means! , and still more that won't bond both ends of metal conduit containing the grounding electrode conductor. This should all be real basic stuff for licensed contractors....RIGHT???

 

[whitedogone]

Technically, it is.

Article 110 Requirements for Electrical Installations

110.12: "Mechanical Execution of Work. Electrical equipment shall be installed in a neat and workmanlike manner."

Obviously this is a very subjective sentence. That being said, I've only ever seen one installation failed for violating that clause. I've seen a few others that should have been.

I've got a whole lot more to worry about than trying to pick the pepper out of the fly**** by trying to enforce 110.12:confused2: