Electric tractor

   / Electric tractor #41  
Lets crank this up a notch:

I do love the devotion of what I call "Whole Wheat Twinkies". Where does the electricity come from to charge the batteries? If it comes from solar, hydro electric, nuclear or wind generated then this is somewhat of an acceptable environmental positive. One must also take into account the recycling of the batteries used in this application. While lead acid batteries have enough lead to warrant recycling the economy of the operation is not viable in many industrialized countries. Here is a short article from Greenpeace on lead acid batteries.
The Myth of Automobile Battery Recycling
If your electric is coming off the grid then the burning of hydrocarbon fuels is most likely the source of your energy. While you may proudly show off your "Green" tractor to your neighbors the fact is that somewhere down the grid is an environmental nightmare of pollution and Co2 emissions. If you don't see smoke coming out the exhaust pipe it dosn't mean there is no pollution.

For me, I'll keep running my small, polluting diesel tractor and will instead concentrate more on living an environmentally sound lifestyle.

Let the beating begin! :D
 
   / Electric tractor #42  
Ummm...............this was already covered in post 15. And as far as Greenpeace is concerned, They are about as radical kook fringe group as PETA. I believe their propaganda about as much as I do the skinheads.
 
   / Electric tractor #43  
Nat, I just read your previous post, along with Ian's. All my experience is with much higher amperage units than you are building. If I were to build an electric tractor, judging by Ian's values given, it would probably be way too overpowered. He-he, welcome to America. At least I'd have the fastest electric tractor out there. Just to give you an example, the batteries in the units I work on weigh from 1200 lbs. to 4000 lbs. Even to put the smaller size components into something your size would be overkill. The unit would weigh a ton. If I do build one, perhaps it will be a full size tractor, complete with SCR controlled hydraulics. This would all be simple direct bolt-ins straight out of a forklift.

Ian, it looks like I owe you an apology. Perhaps your unit is not underpowered. I am used to working on much powerful units and did not think that your motors would do much. In my industry, the motors you are using are used for steering.
 
   / Electric tractor #44  
Why is it as soon as someone mentions electric power, we immediately have to go into a philisophical debate about about the true environmental impact of energy source choices???? Personally I really don't give a rats behind either way! I think most of the retoric is biased towards whoevers position is being supported and they use it to pry money out of the sheep herd to fund it! ( my OPINION, you are also entitled to an OPINION, and I don't wish to debate it, I'll keep mine ,you keep yours ). I view electric power as a choice just like gas or diesel,,,, mind you if your a do it yourselfer and don't have a clue, and don't want a clue about diesel then guess how many your going to own?? none, your gonna stick to what you know, unless you are forced to do otherwise. I deal with gasoline, propane, diesel, and electric power everyday each has its good points and bad and each has it's place in the grand scheme.
 
   / Electric tractor #45  
I think Nat, for one, was asking for some ideas about converting his David Bradley to electric power. Wouldn't one of the challenges be to figure out where to put the batteries since he is attempting to convert a 2 wheel tractor? Unless he already has the implements for the David Bradley, the availability of implements could be a future issue. Looks like a 4 wheel garden tractor would be an easier conversion?

Here is a link to an interesting conversion of an Allis Chalmers Model G. Allis Chalmers "G" Electric Cultivating and Seeding Tractor Conversion Project
 
   / Electric tractor #46  
Yes, I think a 2 wheeler would pose a problem,,,, where to put the batteries??? If you put them on top the unit would have a very high center of gravity,,, if you put them on either end you could disturb the balance necessary for ease of operation. Now somewhere I found and early 2 wheeler,, it was an electric, but powered by the grid, basically had a big extension cord arrangement, don't know if it worked but it looked different.
 
   / Electric tractor #47  
I found the site Bungartz.nl . They even show a couple of grid powered tracked machines.
 
   / Electric tractor #48  
That's an interesting site. I had no clue that anybody had ever powered tractors via electric lines.
 
   / Electric tractor #49  
I found it while doing 2 wheel tractor "research".
 
   / Electric tractor #50  
Wayne County Hose said:
Nat, I just read your previous post, along with Ian's. All my experience is with much higher amperage units than you are building. If I were to build an electric tractor, judging by Ian's values given, it would probably be way too overpowered. He-he, welcome to America. At least I'd have the fastest electric tractor out there. Just to give you an example, the batteries in the units I work on weigh from 1200 lbs. to 4000 lbs. Even to put the smaller size components into something your size would be overkill. The unit would weigh a ton. If I do build one, perhaps it will be a full size tractor, complete with SCR controlled hydraulics. This would all be simple direct bolt-ins straight out of a forklift.

Ian, it looks like I owe you an apology. Perhaps your unit is not underpowered. I am used to working on much powerful units and did not think that your motors would do much. In my industry, the motors you are using are used for steering.

Hi,

No problem. The wee tractor is intended for light duties and I wouldn't claim any more than that - more power will be needed for heavier work - but how much, that's the question?



Nat,

Thanks for the info - I'll take a moment and have a look at the pics.


All,

I won't make any comment on the environmental impact debate. I have to admit my interest in electric vehicles has little to do with the environmental issues. Electric motors are very effective prime movers, why not use them in vehicles? There are problems - energy storage being the most obvious, but that's no reason for not trying.

Ian
 
   / Electric tractor #51  
I am following the this thread with avid interest. I want to build an electric ride-on lawn mower. Does anybody know any figures for the power required to drive the mowing blades ? (make any assumptions you like - I kindof assume it would be a disk with blades on it, maybe 36 inches or more across).

Also, would you advise front, centre, or rear blade location ?

Then add an inverter so you can run a standard mains-voltage wipper-snipper off the batteries ... hmm, maybe I am getting carried away ...
 
   / Electric tractor #52  
Nat,

An afterthought - could you hazard a rough guess at the Bradley's weight?

Ian
 
   / Electric tractor #53  
Ian,, My Gravely weighs in at 490 lbs without an attachment, if the IC engine were removed we would be down to around 375 lbs and the Bradley should be close to that weight if not a little lighter,,, if that helps.
 
   / Electric tractor #54  
Hey John, give this site a look, I did see an inverter as an option to be able to run various items. If you search the site long enough you will also find a welder was also offered.
 
   / Electric tractor #55  
Geeze, ya think if I refered you to a link I'd put it in the post. Well here it is Elec-Trak.com
 
   / Electric tractor #56  
JohnBarlow said:
I am following the this thread with avid interest. I want to build an electric ride-on lawn mower. Does anybody know any figures for the power required to drive the mowing blades ? (make any assumptions you like - I kindof assume it would be a disk with blades on it, maybe 36 inches or more across). ...
I heard the rule of thumb was at least 2 to 2.5 HP per foot of width. 28" walk-behind mowers usually have a 5 or 6 hp engine. A 48" rider might have a 8 or 10 hp engine. My John Deere 4100 is rated at 18 hp and runs a 60" deck just fine.

Getting a setup to produce 10hp electrically for more than a few minutes at a time is going require massive amounts of batteries. I think you will find that the battery weight (and perhaps bulk) overwhelms everything else about the design. Standard Lead-acid batteries are not going to be practical. To even make it workable is going to require expensive solutions like Li-ion.

- Rick
 
   / Electric tractor #57  
John,,, The motors used on the GE tractor mower deck are 3/4 hp, 36v, turning at 3600 rpm, according to specs I found for replacement motors at kansaswindpower.
 
   / Electric tractor #58  
Heres another link for a current production electric tractor ( funny looking tractor, looks like a buggy to me ). It is powered by lead acid batteries, 6 of them, each about the size of a car battery,,, no mention of lithium ion power,,, if you check out the GE tractor of the late 60's and 70's they used lead acid batteries and they, even with primitive motors and controllers were able to operate ( with the mower engaged ) for several hours on a charge ( tank of fuel ), According to the literature from GE their largest tractor the E20 was capable of operating a 42" deck at what looks to be around 3 mph and able to cut 2.5 to 3.5 acres on one charge. But what we don't know here is how much of the growth they were cutting off, kinda one of those your milage may differ sort of things. I have also seen modifications made to the 42" deck,,, adding 2 more motors/blades for a 70" cut, obviously the run time for the additional motors will be less, but probably relative to the work done. The size and weight of the E20 looks to be that of a large garden tractor.
 
   / Electric tractor #60  
Nat,

Okay, here's a stab at the Bradley drive.

Bear with me - I get there in the end!

A rough estimate can be obtained of the limit of traction of the two wheeler from its weight and typical coefficients of adhesion for wheels operating on soil/dirt/clay etc. Knowing this would let us estimate the drive forces/torques that the tractor is capable of generating at it's slip limit - and this, together with a desired operating speed, would let us estimate the mechanical power (at the wheels) that can be usefully harnessed by the machine for land use.

Three sources I've managed to find suggest that the limit of slip for tractor type wheels on land use (ie not on asphalt/concrete type surfaces but when working land) may be at or below coefficients of adhesion of about 0.6. Ie the wheel might be able to produce forward drive force at the ground contact point up to about 60% of the down-load on the wheel - wheel torques that try to produce drive forces bigger than this will just spin the wheel as the traction is lost. This is a 1st approximation there are many factors in play here so the numbers might vary for different tires, pressures and soil conditions but the 60% seems to be a reasonable start point. Note also all of this drive force may not be available for haulage - some will be used to overcome rolling resistance etc.

If the machine weights in at about 350 lbs (160 kgf) this suggests an estimated maximum total drive force at the limit of slip of the wheels of about 350 x 0.6 = 210 lbs (95 kgf or 930N).

Nat mentioned that the original machine was too fast, if we assume a working speed of the machine when tilling say, of 2 mph (4 mph is a brisk walking pace and many walk-behind lawn mowers do about 2.5 mph) then we can get an estimate of the mechanical power at the wheels when the tractor is operating just below the torque limit of slip and at 2 mph of, P = 932N x 0.9m/s = 840 Watts (2 mph = 0.9 m/s). If I knew the wheel diameter this calc could also be expressed in torque and shaft speed terms - but the answer would be the same.

So, this is the mechanical power at the wheel consumed when the wheels are just below slipping and the tractor is moving at 2 mph. The drive motor will need to provide this power plus whatever is lost in the transmission to the wheels. If the transmission is still in good condition then you shouldn't loose too much power - however check it out, is everything turning freely?

If the machine is to be used for a reasonable period of continuous use at this power output eg used at the limit of its hauling capacity to plough an area of land for an hour say without stopping, then we are effectively saying that the drive motor needs to have a continuous use power rating that matches or exceeds the above figure + losses. An hour's continuous use is easily long enough for the temperature in the motor to saturate and reach a steady level and it will overheat if the current draw is greater than its continuous use rating.

If I was having a go at converting the tractor I'd probably look at a 1000W motor and build a transmission with a speed reduction ratio that ties the rated speed of the motor to the rotational speed of the wheels at 2 mph - this will probably be more than can be achieved in a single stage reduction - but the existing transmission may well do much of it for you. Getting this speed reduction ratio right is important it's the way the motor is properly matched to the duty.

By way of example the 1000W 36V motor on this link (towards the page bottom) is an example of a inexpensive DC drive motor that might be used - difficult to look past these when you see the price - there are other suppliers.

TNC Scooters (Scooter Sales and Service)

Batteries. This motor draws about 36 Amps at 1000W and for it to run at full rated power for 1 hour it would need a 36V battery pack with at least a 36AmpH 1 hour rating. A 12V 38 Amph (20 hour rating) deep cycle battery weights in at about 33 lbs 3 would be 100 lbs or so. (Note the 1 hour rating can be as little as 65% of the 20 hour rating). The real battery life depends though on the real current draw and this is where our estimates become less useful perhaps. The above numbers are based on an estimate of the machine's operation right at it's maximum useful hauling capacity. If through experience you know that is is quite comfortable doing the type of work asked of it and it is not always working right at the limit of slip then the torque demand might be less than we calculated and so will the current demand made by the motor and the battery charge will last longer. Without doing the conversion and setting it to work we can't say for sure how long the batteries will last - but it might be reasonable to assume the above sums are conservative if the machine was comfortable in the past with the duty asked of it.

Controllers - you would need a controller that can also handle the continuous rated current of the motor. Trouble is many of them are rated on short term duty - check the user documentation before buying. For example a 75 Amp controller rated for 1 minute might happily carry our 36 Amps continuously whereas a 35 Amp controller would not.

Again just for the purposes of examples this supplier in the US has a wide range of DC speed controllers of this size and you can get some good tech info on them from the site.

Robot MarketPlace - Electronic Motor Speed Controllers (ESC)

I have tended to use 4QD units for vehicles as they are manufactured here in the UK but there are several competent alternatives and Wayne County Hose has mentioned a few already, he may also be able to help with local sources for suitable batteries. Also his advice on buying a boxed/enclosed controller is good - look at one intended for vehicle use, they are usually better protected than some robot type units.

If I have the weights, speeds, or other data wrong then these numbers may also be wrong - so please use with caution. The best test is to build it and see!

While I remember, a quick note on cooling - don't fully enclose the motor or the speed controller. Both will be happier with a flow of cooling air over them some weather protection may be appropriate but still allow for good air cooling.

Hope this all helps and makes sense, sounds an interesting project.

Ian

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