Educate me on Farm Subsidies!

[N80]

Well, to put things in perspective, I did not buy the land as an investment and I do not make my living from it. So my situation does not rise to the level of not getting a paycheck or losing my property. But, part of the purchase price included the value of existing timber and newly planted pines and I do hope to recoup that expense in the future. However, if I lost every pine I would not expect you (or anyone else) to pay me for my misfortune. I guess I too am a freak of nature as I do not expect the government to take money from you and give it to me because a natural calamity has befallen me. I know that that is counter to the very nature of American culture now, but to me, the idea remains absurd and preposterous. If you or anyone else wants to help me when trouble comes, I'll be happy for the charity and assistance but I certainly don't expect any entity to force you to offer it. And that's where the huge disconnect comes. People think of the government as a great storehouse of free cash, when the truth is that every penny in the storehouse belonged, at one time, to you and me and others just like us.

And if it sounds like I'm being a hypocrite since I'm not a farmer and don't make any money (so far) in agriculture, I feel the same way about my current employment. If times, laws, technology, culture etc change and make my services worthless, then I still don't think I should expect people I don't know to bail me out against their will.

 

[riptides]

N80

Not to harp on this subject, since it is touchy.... but

me for my misfortune.

As I stated earlier, it is not just me. The product and services that I provide (or cannot provide) have far reaching effects into workers we employ. stores we sell to, animals we feed, communities we serve, etc. etc.

My misfortune can be shared by all around me. My community has an investment in my success and failure.

N80 Curious if you planted your pines, since your referring to them as an expense.

-Interesting discussion.
-Mike Z.

 

[Redbug]

My hat is off to you George. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

About losses and such Riptide...
I feel private money/insurance should be there to cover losses. If insurance rates get too high, you don't have the money or want to take the risk...then it's time to change lanes.

Oh by the way...can somebody give me the govt website that sends out all the free maps on how to get to New Orleans...

 

[MossRoad]

N80

And what happens when some pine beetle comes along and wipes you out.

Do you have the resources to start over?

-Mike Z.

That's a good question as I also have trees on my land and it has a farm number. I have rows of pines, and in between every row of pines is a row of mixed hardwoods. There is another stand of mixed trees next to that. There are many different species planted to insure that one disease or insect won't wipe out the entire place.

Anyway, even if all the trees got destroyed, say a forest fire, they only cost me $265.00 after the state reimbursed us for planting them on highly errodable soil. The real savings is in the taxes, as the 20 acres total taxes is under one hundred and fifty dollars every six months.

 

[dmccarty]

I feel private money/insurance should be there to cover losses. If insurance rates get too high, you don't have the money or want to take the risk...then it's time to change lanes.

Bing Bing Bing

Redbug has the correct answer. Why should the government/tax payer be responsbile for a business risks? It does not matter if the business is Exxon, Ford, Joe's Backhoe Service or a Aunt Nelly's Family Farm. The government aka the tax payers should not be responsible for business risks.

Later,
Dan

 

[swiftboot]

Well, I don't think we can blame the tree huggers for the plight of the family farm. Now, you could certainly blame folks like ADM (industrialized farming) for driving the small farm out of existence, much like Walmart drives out small local businesses. I don't think the small businesses nor the farmers should get subsidies, ever. But before someone wants to lynch me, I do believe in an even playing field that makes it so the small businesses and farms can compete. There is a big difference between paying someone for their failure and making the competition fair. Paying for failure encourages failure (who could argue?). Fair competition encourages competition. I believe that corporations get tremendously unfair advantages through their ability to lobby for such advantages. This comes through numerous avenues, from tax laws, to regulatory bodies.

Now, I get taxed on my 250 acres at the agricultural rate (very low) for the simple reason that I have pine trees growing on it. I do consider this a tax advantage and I am willing to accept it. For one, it has nothing to do with success or failure and two, and more importantly, the 'ag rate' is based on a fair assessment of this rural, undeveloped land that currently has no potential for development and no infrastructure for development. I suspect that with a creative accountant or tax lawyer i could jockey to get subsidies.

I absolutely refuse to do that.

N80, I am not trying to start a war here or be political, but I understand those pine needles and bark wil taste marginally well if seasoned with salt and cooked for a very long time. <bg> As for "paying for failure encourages failure", I would agree with the exception of the weather patterns. If one fails at an endeavor for lack of hard work, then paying that person for failure is as you say. However, if a crop is destroyed by drought, hail, or drowned out by heavy rains, its hardly the fault of the farmer. When drought results in a short supply of hay,, no rain results in no spring grasses, its hardly the fault of the farmer. Just as NO was washed away by Katrina, weather can affect the farmer in the same way. How much in "subsidies" went that direction. My original post to this subject was primarily aimed at food production, meat and vegtables. Again its difficult to discuss this without getting political. We have love bugs and other critters that have been introduced into the US via food products. The latest is some kind of critter that came in recently that gets into citrus and cause the tree to only produce sour oranges. So far no cure has been found and thoughts are that citrus may be wiped out in Fl soon. But that will be no problem since the groves will be paved over and housing developments will be put in there place. The freezes of '83 and '86 pretty much proves that out in central Florida. As to the fair competition, in the US dirt farmers are more regulated in the kinds of treatments for pest control, how the product is harvested etc. ie, porty potties, no child labor, livable wage. Cattlemen are restricted on the kinds of herbicides to keep down weeds, the condition of the animal that can be slaughtered for human consumption. I could go on but when boxed beef, or beef on the rail comes into US, it has had minimal restrictions placed on it. One case of Mad Cow disease can be reported in Canada and it affects the price of beef on the hoof in Florida.

The thrust of my intial post was that given the cost of farm land vs the production to make the land pay for itself, wont ever happen around me anyway. Each person who reads might want to determine the cost of land in their area, calculate the amount needed for one cow-calf crop for one year and multiply that out by how many head one would have to manage to make it profitable. btw, in this area a six month old calf will gross about 450-600. And finally I should admit that I am not receiving any subsidies. But I am a gentleman farmer, get the greenbelt tax breaks on land etc. I just dont want to ever, ever only find food products stamped "made in _____" not the USA

 

[N80]

N80 Curious if you planted your pines, since your referring to them as an expense.

No. They had been planted about two years before I bought it. The previous owner passed that expense on through the purchase price I paid.

I did not buy the land for the pines and had no intention of being a pine farmer when I bought the place.

Interestingly, we have had some losses due to pine beetles, mostly in the more mature trees. Beavers have done significant damage to the younger trees.

 

[N80]

My hat is off to you George. You pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Thanks Dave. But I will have to admit that my stance on this is pretty much theoretical. Its pretty easy to be bold before trouble comes. I can't say what I'd actually do if the bottom fell out, but on principle, I'd prefer not to take money from someone else unless they offered it on their own.

 

[N80]

As for "paying for failure encourages failure", I would agree with the exception of the weather patterns. If one fails at an endeavor for lack of hard work, then paying that person for failure is as you say. However, if a crop is destroyed by drought, hail, or drowned out by heavy rains, its hardly the fault of the farmer.

I don't see a difference. Why should the government use other people's money to bail anyone out? And the weather is simply a risk farmer's face. In that regard, its no different from how the economy can affect a small business. Small businesses have no more control over the economy than a farmer has over the weather. Neither one deserves to be bailed out with mine and your money.

Just as NO was washed away by Katrina, weather can affect the farmer in the same way. How much in "subsidies" went that direction.

100% too much in my opinion. But again, I understand that by contemporary standards my opinion is bizarre and outdated.

 

[deere755]

I am like most of you I don't like seeing my hard earned tax dollars given to someone who is too lazy to make a living and lives off of you and I. I also don't think that we should help every business out that makes poor decisions and fails. I do believe that agriculture is a little different from most businesses though. Farmers can not control price of their products the input costs and most of all the weather. Farmers not only feed us, they create jobs and keep the econmy going as well. I live in a small farm community and we depend highly on agriculture around here. ADM and Tate&Lyle employ hundreds of people paying good wages with benefits something that is hard to find in this area. Both are Ag processers. Their are several grain elevators in this area who provide jobs because of farmers, Ag equipment dealers and mechanics, Seed companies, fertlizer and chemical dealers, Trucking companies who haul the products from the elevators to the processer and then haul the finished product away. The insurance man who sells crop and equipment insurance to the farmer ( I know he sells to other people too),The railroad who transport there goods, The company who sells them fuel for their equipment,etc. That is just in my little area. You also have the factories who make the equipment that farmers use plus the chemical and seed companies who make the chemical that the farmers use. The list just keeps going on. Another way to look at it is that the subsidies he gets come right back to the community also. Whether it be real esate taxes, groceries, Fuel, equipment, new cars trucks, fertlizer, the insurance man. Everyone benefits from his subsidies and everyone has a hand out wanting to get some of it. I don't know of any business who turns them away because they got their money from the government. My Dad is in the trucking business and his company hauls alot of produce out of Florida. Florida has had a drought this year and it has really put the hurt on his company. He is not a farmer but He depends on them. Do you think he wants them to go out of business or would he like to see them get some help so he can keep hauling their products. Think about your area and how much agriculture supports you. Farmers don't just feed us the sustain us creating jobs.