Dump wagon build

[CDN Farm Boy]

So a slight (cough, ya slight...sure) problem developed. Got back to the yard with the first load, tried to dump it and no dice. Too much rear-ward force from the cyl and not enough up for the weight that was on it to dump. Ended up breaking off the stop blocks that were trying to keep it from sliding off the back of the wagon frame. Now I need to re-engineer how it is anchored to the wagon, since the base of the cyl is mounted on it to keep it as low as I could.


I see 3 options to fix this:

a) Weld it solid both front and back. That would certainly be the most solid but I'm used to wagons having a bit of flex to the frame to help keep the tires on the ground, but does that really matter?

b) Weld the rear solid and all the forces are then transferred thru the reach. Need new grade 8 bolts on the reach if I do this but the bolts that are there really should be replaced anyway.

c) Beefier stop blocks on the front which would have the forces transferred thru my lower side rails. These would have to be floating blocks welded only to my new frame as when dumped the decks will sit firmly on the rear portion of the frame. This is by far the most difficult of the 3 options.

Thoughts?

 

[bcp]

Maybe another cylinder mounted vertically to lift the bed maybe 15-20 degrees before the main cylinder takes over at a better angle.

I've seen an old dump truck set up like that.

Bruce

 

[rswyan]

Thoughts?

What is the angle that the cylinder starts at ?

Angled Cylinder Push / Pull - Surplus Center

You might wish to consider re-orienting the cylinder 180 degrees - so that you have better leverage (push the front of the bed up, rather than the rear) ... although that as a solution may pose a problem with getting enough dump angle.

bcp's idea of using an additional cylinder is interesting.

 

[davedj1]

Well one way would be to raise the whole bed up a few inches. On my dump trailer I have about 13* of cylinder angle, it does struggle in the beginning but pushes it up without issue once moving.
Because of the way the trailer frame is built I don't see lowering the front end as an option but that's what I did.
Good luck,
dave

 

[Barry 1]

This is what you need.

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Maybe another cylinder mounted vertically to lift the bed maybe 15-20 degrees before the main cylinder takes over at a better angle.

I've seen an old dump truck set up like that.

Bruce

This idea came to me already. Never seen one in person though. I wonder how it would be plumbed for easy 1 lever operation?

What is the angle that the cylinder starts at ?

Angled Cylinder Push / Pull - Surplus Center

You might wish to consider re-orienting the cylinder 180 degrees - so that you have better leverage (push the front of the bed up, rather than the rear) ... although that as a solution may pose a problem with getting enough dump angle.

bcp's idea of using an additional cylinder is interesting.

I've got to measure the actual angle and see how it works out. Thanks for the link to that calculator, that certainly makes things easier.

I disagree with 180 the cyl. The force will be pushing in the wrong direction and the cyl will for the most part always be parallel with the dump bed. At least now, the angle quickly improves as the bed raises.

Well one way would be to raise the whole bed up a few inches. On my dump trailer I have about 13* of cylinder angle, it does struggle in the beginning but pushes it up without issue once moving.
Because of the way the trailer frame is built I don't see lowering the front end as an option but that's what I did.
Good luck,
dave

Ya, I've got to check the angle. You are right, can't lower the base end any, tried to keep it as low as I could already. Raising the bed could be fairly easy as I still have to figure out how to re-anchor it to the wagon.

<img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=405469"/>

This is what you need.

Possibly, I will be considering that. I figured this should work since I've seen other dump trailers built like I did.


I appreciate all the input but before I consider any reworking of how the cyl is mounted, I've got to figure out how to best anchor the lower rails to the wagon frame

 

[aczlan]

This idea came to me already. Never seen one in person though. I wonder how it would be plumbed for easy 1 lever operation?

Just tee it into the main lift cylinder extend and retract lines and make it so that it just pushes up on the bed and it is not attached to the dump bed.
Being as it will take less force to lift, it will extend before the main cylinder.

Aaron Z

 

[rswyan]

... I've got to measure the actual angle and see how it works out. Thanks for the link to that calculator, that certainly makes things easier.

You quite welcome.

I disagree with 180 the cyl. The force will be pushing in the wrong direction and the cyl will for the most part always be parallel with the dump bed. At least now, the angle quickly improves as the bed raises.

Umm ... you need to be thinking about mechanical advantage ...

Check out the three different types/classes of levers:

Lever ...

The type you are using is a Class III ... which always has a mechanical advantage of less than 1 (which means mechanical disadvantage)

This can be overcome by shear force ... assuming you have it ... and the equipment will take it.

I'm suggesting a setup with a Class II lever ... which always has a mechanical advantage greater than 1 ...

 

[ovrszd]

I believe in the end you will have to go to a scissor hoist design. Amazing what they will lift. Your design expends more energy pushing rearward than it does pushing upward. I ran into a similar problem when building my Grapple. At full open my claws have minimal strength until they start closing and the triangle opens, then they develop tremendous strength. In you design the triangle is very thin in the beginning, unlike the scissor design.

Awesome looking wagon though. You'll get a lot of use out of it once you fine tune the hoist!!!

 

[CDN Farm Boy]

Just tee it into the main lift cylinder extend and retract lines and make it so that it just pushes up on the bed and it is not attached to the dump bed.
Being as it will take less force to lift, it will extend before the main cylinder.

Aaron Z

Had already figured it would need a floating mount on the bed end. Didn't think too much on the plumbing but now that you point it out, it would be easy enough to do.