Driveway maintenence - toothbar?

[twosocks90]

I have a MF35 utility tractor with a front end loader and have been thinking about building a toothbar. It may be that I've come up with a good reason to do so..

We have a limestone driveway that's gotten pretty darn hard since we moved in six years ago. It was built with crusher-run limestone which has turned to an amazingly hard surface over the past few years. The problem is that potholes have developed in spots and they're growing. The damp spots in the upper left of the picture are where water is collecting.

The loader on the MF35 can't even begin to dent the surface. It just bounces along the top and occasionally digs up a loose rock or two and that actually makes the problem worse, not better. I'm trying to figure out the best way to fix this. I've thought about getting a toothbar in hopes that it'll allow me to dig the surface and reset the grade once again. Or, just dump more loose limestone on top and try to fill in the holes that way?

(The tractor pic is just to show the machine. There's no snow on the ground here now -- just slimy mud as things melt.)

 

[murphy1244]

Try a Ratchet Rake, that should do it.

 

[RDrancher]

Crusher run?...that looks like a creekbed! The area around any potholes needs to be scarified to full depth and re-graded. I'd rip it with BB scarifiers and re-grade the entire thing.

 

[Industrial Toys]

That is my material of choice on my driveway. I use my Harley Pro 8 powered rake to chew it up. The S tines actually do a pretty good job of stirring up material ahead of the serrated roller.

What about a chain or diamond type harow harrow? Something with spikes. My concern is always to spread the stuff off to the sides and lose it.

Biggest thing. Tell people to drive off to the sides. Can't believe how dumb people are to drive in the same ruts as everyone else.

 

[DB Pilot]

I bought a tooth bar a few years ago and used it to keep a pile of dirt weed free and easy to dig in when I needed it. As to digging on a flat surface...I think there might be better implements like a box blade with scarifiers. The tooth bar has been idle for two years now. I own EA's Land leveler. I use it a lot on a 1000' gravel driveway. Great results and no having to go back and fix spots. That being said I still use the rock rake at times.

 

[troutsqueezer]

Since I am by nature, a lazy tractor driver, I use the tooth bar in conjunction with the BB. I could jump off the tractor and set the scarifiers on the BB down to loosen up the hard gravel and then repeat the process to move the scarifiers back into the up position but I would much rather point the bucket slightly into the road and let the teeth loosen the gravel at the front of the tractor while the BB gathers it up behind the tractor all in one fell swoop. Works great.

 

[jeff9366]

The area around any potholes needs to be scarified to full depth and re-graded. I'd rip it with BB scarifiers and re-grade the entire thing.

RDRANCHER KNOWS: For more than a temporary fix, you need to tear up the road surface to the bottom depth of all potholes, then regrade.

A tooth bar may be the least expensive attachment for the job; or possibly a Rip & Dig FEL attachment from Ratchet Rake, LLC. Maybe a potato plow? ((A Box Blade is the correct implement.))

http://www.ratchetrake.com/images/rip_and_dig_brochure.pdf


A regular Ratchet Rake would be fine for the grading work but it is unlikely you can get deep enough with RR to reach bottom depth of potholes.

 

[DJ54]

To "fix" the problem, I see 3 options. Either add enough new material to that inside curve, to let the water flow on, and not across so it doesn't collect. Cut a ditch so the water will flow, and drain beyond that point, or put a french type drain in that inside curve. and run it across the driveway, IF you have a place for it to drain out on the side the pic was taken from. That would be the very last option

Looking at the pics, I see the pot holes pretty well follow the path of the damp material. That tells me the water is seeping under the sub base material, following the path of least resistance, and your base just getting pushed down into the mud. I'd imagine the initial damage was done during the construction phase by large trucks delivering materials. If there was any topsoil left, or mixed in during the initial cut/fill construction of the drive, this will hold water also, and pump, or let the base material sink into it.

If it were me, I'd get what we call 304, #4 limestone, down to bug dust, and build up the inside curve, so the water will flow on down the grade. It's large enough, that maybe it won't wash too bad. Then get enough 67D, 67's down to dust, to fill in the holes. You'll want both materials damp, so as to pack. 67D will be fine enough that you can grade it, and not bring a large rock to the top to be kicked around, until it makes it way to the edge.

Ripping clear down through, and the possibility of bringing clay up will make a mess. Wet clay will literally pump every time it gets wet. Worse in the spring thaw. If a gob of clay gets worked in between the layers of limestone, it will simply make a pumpy spot, and eventually a mini pothole.

A lot depends on the limestone you're using too. You don't give a location where you're at, so don't know if you have both types. There are two kinds. Fresh water, and salt water limestone. Here in Ohio, we have both types. The fresh water limestone is softer, and smaller sizes will breakdown and turn to mud within a few years. The saltwater type, not so likely to do so.

Your tractor is plenty heavy enough to roll the material in as equipped in the picture. Just make sure the material is good and damp, not necessarily mushy wet. And probably best done in early spring when all other material in the drive is still workable, so as to bond, and blend in.

Just my two cents...

 

[troutsqueezer]

Potholes are formed when the ground molecules in that particular area form a vortex and everything within the vortex event horizon will suck down into it, never to be seen again. You can rip it up, concrete it over 10 feet down and the pothole will still come back. So with that in mind, any fix for potholes is merely temporary. This scientific fact is substantiated by any road, left on its own over a span of time.

No charge for that information.

 

[crazyangel]

I have a tooth bar on my loader, and find that it doesn't work nearly as well as the scarfers on my box blade when trying to break up potholes in a crusher run driveway. The tooth bar will bite in, but not nearly as well. So it takes 4 times longer, and the loader takes a beating trying to break up the hard pack with the bucket. I would say if time and loader wear are not a concern, then the tooth bar is certainly an option that can get you there. YMMV.

 

[troutsqueezer]

I would agree. My bucket is pretty robust so I can dig in pretty deep but for deeper scarifying I would resort to the BB. For the shallower holes and for washboarding, the tooth bar is a good accessory.

 

[twosocks90]

Appreciate the advice against a toothbar in favor of a box blade -- I don't want to beat up my equipment unnecessarily. Though too bad, I thought this was the excuse I was looking for to get a toothbar.

Here's a couple more pictures of the driveway. The original driveway is the dry, right side. My friend with his tractor and box blade first built it up with dirt, compacted it by driving on it, then I topcoated with limestone. Over the years, it's needed no maintenance.

The left side of the driveway was an expansion because the original was too narrow. The excavator (who was onsite for other work) stripped the topsoil off and we simply added limestone to match the rest of the driveway. A couple years later, the potholes started and have just grown ever since. There is good drainage to both sides -- we live on top of a hill -- so as long as water doesn't pool in the driveway it can run off.

 

[nybirdman]

A tooth-bar is a great addition for digging,but what you need for your road is a box blade.

 

[mark02tj]

If you don't want to buy a box blade, have you considered renting one? There is at least one rental place around here that will rent them for about $30 a day. That's not too bad.

I don't know how far you are from Omaha, but here's a place that might have one. I didn't see a box blade on their website, but they do have a tractor/loader/scraper combo for rent. It might be worth giving them a call.

On the other hand, I'm always looking for ANY excuse to buy a new implement!!

 

[DKCDKC]

I use a Ratchet Rake and a BB on my mile long gravel driveway. I have one flat portion in a damp cove woodland that sometimes develops potholes. I've used the RR and BB to fill them in, but they reappear. For the worse ones I went out with a power bar and shovel and dug them down a foot - just an hour or two of healthy work. I then filled them to near the top with trash rock 2 in or better gathered in the garden, etc., then topped off with a scoop of crusher run from my supply pile. They've never come back. I should have laid my entire drive on large stone, layered with gravel and coated with crusher run. But I didn't have the money. I just laid gravel and crusher run - and most of it is fine 17 years later. The potholes I have worked on have never returned.

Unfortunately most of my drive is very steep and curved, and water is not my friend. But my local quarry is.

 

[lostcreekranch]

Appreciate the advice against a toothbar in favor of a box blade -- I don't want to beat up my equipment unnecessarily. Though too bad, I thought this was the excuse I was looking for to get a toothbar. Here's a couple more pictures of the driveway. The original driveway is the dry, right side. My friend with his tractor and box blade first built it up with dirt, compacted it by driving on it, then I topcoated with limestone. Over the years, it's needed no maintenance. The left side of the driveway was an expansion because the original was too narrow. The excavator (who was onsite for other work) stripped the topsoil off and we simply added limestone to match the rest of the driveway. A couple years later, the potholes started and have just grown ever since. There is good drainage to both sides -- we live on top of a hill -- so as long as water doesn't pool in the driveway it can run off. <img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=361617"/><img src="http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=361618"/>

Welcome to TBN. I was born in Blair but, have been in Texas since I came back from SE Asia in 1971. Still have lots of cousins in Oakland, Herman, Tekamah etc.

From personal experience, you have to really work to get rid of a "pot hole" in your drive. Aggressive action, as noted by RDrancher is the only sure way to solve the issue.

Go Big, Go Deep,!

 

[twosocks90]

I have a couple of friends with box blades so I can beg or borrow the use of one if I need to. I'm thinking to remove most of the rock then add dirt to bring the driveway subsurface up like the rest of it is. That should prevent water from pooling under the rock and creating these holes which is what I think is the underlying problem here. It's unbelievable how much rock costs nowadays though.

I should have been more careful when the driveway was expanded and I probably wouldn't be having such a problem now.

 

[katoomed00]

I just use my old 5' grader blade and pitch it 1 hole (not sure the degree), drag it several times in different directions. it does a great job of breaking things up, then just put blade straight and make a few passes, driveway looks nice again.
I don't like the idea of dragging my FEL , makes me feel like I'm passing a grinder on it, don't get me wrong I have done it before, but the results weren't near as good as the grader blade.
Nowadays I purchase crushed concrete, it's half the price of limestone and sets a lot better,

 

[DJ54]

I really think you don't want to add dirt. From the looks of that wheel track, it's pretty close to the dirt now, and you've got mud pumping up through now.

For the deep holes, if you haul it yourself, get maybe some #4 limestone, and place a layer in the bottom of the holes, choking it with limestone screenings to fill in the voids, even if you need to take them a little deeper as mentioned. Another layer like that, or from there up, some 304, or what ever they calls 4's down to dust there as a top coat. Once holes are filled, top dress the whole wet area with the 304, or 67D and get it high enough to keep the water at the side, then make sure the shoulder is draining beyond that point. The 67D will be much easier to grade, and feather out later on.

We have built highway road base out of #2's and choked with screenings to make a good base. We got it premixed at a 50/50 mix. Just can't work it much, as the screenings will go to the bottom, and the 2's will be on top. But this was a 12" base, and a different story. Plus the sub-base was crowned to shed the water, and outlets cut to keep water from standing under the road.

Even a simple lock level, and one of the large retractable steel measuring tapes can get you the grade to shed that water on around the curve. Not to be smart... You said it was draining well, but the damp material in the driveway, crossing at an angle tells me different. Water looks to be soaking through the sub base, following the path of least resistance.

 

[twosocks90]

DJ64, thanks for the advice. I got lost in your reply talking about the numbers of the stone though. When I order rock it's by size: 3/4", 1 1/2" or 3" and then I can either get crusher run or not. Can you translate your reply for me? I think you're saying to put larger stone in the bottom of the hole then bury it in screenings/dust to make a firm subbase, then top coat it with smaller rock.

You said "if you haul it yourself". We can no longer take our pickup to the quarry for rock -- they refuse to load small vehicles which means I have to have relatively large quantities delivered by their dump trucks. It's unfortunate that there's no easy way to buy relatively small quantities any more.

Not to be smart... You said it was draining well, but the damp material in the driveway, crossing at an angle tells me different.

Sorry, I was not clear. If I can get the water off the driveway, it will drain off. The driveway itself is an entirely other matter. It's holding water like crazy. Yesterday we had a thaw and as another member posted... it looks like a creek! I should've taken a picture. It's getting worse and worse every month.