Doolittle Raiders

[QRTRHRS]

Found a very interesting article written by Bob Greeneabout an effort to award the medal of honor to all 80 members of that effort. Now, the article does get political at the end but let's disregard that part.

Rather, I want to point out as the article reinterates what many already know. And that is, these men knew that this could very well be their last mission period. That there was a good chance that they would not come back. And many did not. Yet they chose to do so for the greater good.

I believe that we have men (and women) today that would readily step up to the task however different in scope due to our time but just as risky as that of Doolittle's Raiders.

Anyway, I thought the story was worthy of passing on.

 

[zzvyb6]

Read the book: "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" by Capt. Ted W. Lawson. You'll get the full picture. This raid was not about bombing Japanese cities. It was to force the Japanese home defense forces back to home shores instead of advancing to Alaska, California and the rest of our West coast. They were flying 'gas cans' instead of 'bombers' with very little hope of return. None turned down Doolittle's offer to back out.

 

[bcp]

Launch movie:

https://archive.org/details/Doolittle_Raid_Launch_Footage_1942

Bruce

 

[300UGUY]

A lot of guys did that. Look at the B17 crews - needed to have 25 missions. The command was willing to take casuality rates of at least 10%. Somwtimes raids lost 40 or 50%. That's why they had the highest casuality rates of any branch of service.

 

[cqaigy2]

A lot of guys did that. Look at the B17 crews - needed to have 25 missions. The command was willing to take casuality rates of at least 10%. Somwtimes raids lost 40 or 50%. That's why they had the highest casuality rates of any branch of service.

My Dad was a bomber pilot in WWII so i don't mean to take away from any heros in that war, but seems i remember reading that the merchant marines took highest casualty rate.

 

[Rock knocker]

Even Dugout Doug got a MoH

 

[powerpace]

8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers

 

[dmccarty]

Read the book: "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" by Capt. Ted W. Lawson. You'll get the full picture. This raid was not about bombing Japanese cities. It was to force the Japanese home defense forces back to home shores instead of advancing to Alaska, California and the rest of our West coast. They were flying 'gas cans' instead of 'bombers' with very little hope of return. None turned down Doolittle's offer to back out.

Lawson's book is very good. Especially about what he had to endure after crashing.

Later,
Dan

 

[dmccarty]

My Dad was a bomber pilot in WWII so i don't mean to take away from any heros in that war, but seems i remember reading that the merchant marines took highest casualty rate.

I think it depends on how the numbers are crunched. The casualty rate will be different if one includes every soldier serving in the Army Air Corps vs only flight crews. I think it is more applicable to only include the flight crews since the ground crew and support units, while critical to the unit, were almost certainly not going to take casualties. Where as everyone in the Merchant Marine had some chance of people a casualty.

A B17 flew into an airport near us a year or two back and I was able to get on board the plane. I should have paid to ride in the plane as well though it was very expensive. I really regret not paying for a ride. Anyway, I have spent most of my life reading about history and especially WWII but getting on that B17 was an education in itself. I KNOW that the planes were just thin aluminum but seeing HOW thin is something else. Thinking that only a little bit of metal is between you and empty sky is interesting. The men also were MUCH smaller than today. There were many men would could not move to the nose of the plane because they were too FAT. I knew the space was TIGHT but seeing it was something else. How those men managed to bail out of the plane wearing all of their gear was difficult and some did not make it. Seeing the tight space was an eye opener. I am surprised many men made it out at all.

No way in heck would I have been a ball gunner. One, I am too tall. :laughing: Two, there would be no way I would have crawled into that ball and hoped I would be able to get back out... Ball gunners were either the Super Brave or clueless and I don't think they were clueless..

Later,
Dan

 

[cqaigy2]

I was thinking along the same lines as you Dan, wondering if just air crew vs. whole Army/Navy. I remember my Dad saying fighter support casualties at that time were horrendous. He said he 'started training as a fighter pilot but for some reason the Army grabbed a bunch of them and switched to bomber'. Periods of boredom, trying to stay awake, with periods of terror, trying to stay alive. They had so little sleep, he remembers at night ferrying a bomber and crew to another base and the whole crew fell asleep, to awaken to pine trees filling the wind screen, he remembers pushing the throttles full forward then pulling up, he figured they flew thru the top 20 feet or so of these trees. Needles and splinters flew everywhere and he had a new respect for the props as they chew thru foliage. Nobody said anything when they landed and ground crew wanted to know how the needles and wood splinter got jammed into every nook and cranny on the plane.

On a lighter note, his last duty was to fly a B17 around the States, for display at fairs. He said it was full of bullet holes with each one with a red circle painted around it. Looked like it had the measles, it was pretty uncomfortable to fly because of the wind blowing around inside and stirring up all the dust and crap, not to mention how cold it was.

 

[Barton]

These 3 landed at our local airport yesterday afternoon. They will be here 2 more days. Being a bit of a WW2 buff, I had to go see them. We were allowed to crawl through the 2 B's. Pretty cool and that P-51 is just pure ***.



A couple of pictures of the inside of the B-17:



I was surprised to see this veteran:

 

[k0ua]

These 3 landed at our local airport yesterday afternoon. They will be here 2 more days. Being a bit of a WW2 buff, I had to go see them. We were allowed to crawl through the 2 B's. Pretty cool and that P-51 is just pure ***.

View attachment 344559 View attachment 344560 View attachment 344561

A couple of pictures of the inside of the B-17:

View attachment 344562 View attachment 344563

I was surprised to see this veteran:

View attachment 344564

That is extremely cool. I will always remember hearing and feeling a P-51 mustang taking off. OMG the extreme power and sound of that engine winding up and taking to the air was just breathtaking.

 

[mjarrels]

P-51's were wimps at first using a US engine... when upped to a merlin twice the HP they would screem.

mark

 

[PhysAssist]

My Dad was a bomber pilot in WWII so i don't mean to take away from any heros in that war, but seems i remember reading that the merchant marines took highest casualty rate.

Interestingly, my da was regular Navy, rated as an armed guard, but on detached service to Merchant Marine ships in Atlantic fleet. He tells amazing stories of Normandy invasion from a waterfront viewpoint. He did get a ship sunk from under him in the North sea, but was rescued after a very short time in the drink. Ironically, it turned out to have been a friendly that sunk his vessel..

 

[Daver1963]

These pictures were taken on September 10, 2001 at the 164th Airlift Wing, Memphis IAP, TN. This B-17 had flown in for an upcoming 54th anniversary of the Air Force. It is not the original Memphis Belle. At the time the 164th was flying C-141Bs.
Little did we know what would be happening the next morning. It ended up being grounded for a while even after the 7 day no fly period after 9/11 because something happened with the engines.

 

[dmccarty]

These 3 landed at our local airport yesterday afternoon. They will be here 2 more days. Being a bit of a WW2 buff, I had to go see them. We were allowed to crawl through the 2 B's. Pretty cool and that P-51 is just pure ***.


A couple of pictures of the inside of the B-17:

View attachment 344562 View attachment 344563

The first image of the bomb bay was the bottle neck that prevent many of the men from moving forward to the nose.

I saw a B24 and B17 fly into an airfield near my college decades ago. I saw them take off and then they buzzed the airfield. The engine noise was simply awesome. You could imagine what seeing and hearing hundreds of these planes at once must have been like to both the Allies and to the Axis.

I hope you were able to see the planes warm up their engines and take off...

Later,
Dan

 

[2LaneCruzer]

P-51's were wimps at first using a US engine... when upped to a merlin twice the HP they would screem.

mark

The P-51's were originally equipped with the GM built 1100 hp Allison V-12...a very good engine, and fast at low altitudes. When refitted with the Packard built RR licensed Merlin, at a hefty 1490 hp, you're right, they screamed...especially at high altitude...where their top speed was, as I recall, about 480 mph.

 

[houstonscott]

The P-51's were originally equipped with the GM built 1100 hp Allison V-12...a very good engine, and fast at low altitudes. When refitted with the Packard built RR licensed Merlin, at a hefty 1490 hp, you're right, they screamed...especially at high altitude...where their top speed was, as I recall, about 480 mph.

Did you know the P51 was designed by a German who worked for Messerschmitt. As far as the Doolittle raid; what made it historic was it was the first time in Japanese history that an enemy had attacked the main island. HS

 

[dmccarty]

These pictures were taken on September 10, 2001 at the 164th Airlift Wing, Memphis IAP, TN. This B-17 had flown in for an upcoming 54th anniversary of the Air Force. It is not the original Memphis Belle.
View attachment 344606

The Memphis Belle is the B17 we saw a summer back.

Can you imagine climbing into that ball turret and hoping that it will not get damaged which would prevent the turret from aligning just right so you could climb back out?

When we were on the B17 it was just after sunrise and it was already hot and humid. It was miserable being in the plane aka oven. I would think in England it would not have been so bad but in the Pacific it most have been really bad. Course, I don't know how the laundry and engine crews worked in ships in the South Pacific...

Later,
Dan

 

[aczlan]

Did you know the P51 was designed by a German who worked for Messerschmitt.

Wikipedia disagrees:

An urban legend has grown up about Edgar Schmued, possibly related to his German origins, claiming he had once worked for Willy Messerschmitt and that the Mustang was heavily influenced by the Messerschmitt Bf 109. Neither claim is true but the urban legend persists. Just as familiar is the notion that the abortive Curtiss XP-46 was the basis of the P-51 design.

Aaron Z