Doing your on logging?

[Rio_Grande]

We have a small property that is rough and there is little access. Aparently our soils are poor and the whit oaks we have are the wrong wood color. Basicly I have heard every excuse on earth why nobody wants to log our property except on poor margins.

BUt I have the equiptment to get the logs out myself and the equiptment to move it to the mills. What I am lacking is the knowledge as to cut lengths and the relationship with the mill not to do all that work and get hosed when I deliver.

Have any of you undertook this task? Any words of wisdom or recomendations?

I have 4 oaks that got defoliated last year and need to go before the end of the year. I figure I would take them first in an effort to minimize my education costs. they are not dead but they may not recover from the moths that got ahold of them. Better to risk them than a big red oak.

 

[foreman Etexas]

We have a small property that is rough and there is little access. Aparently our soils are poor and the whit oaks we have are the wrong wood color. Basicly I have heard every excuse on earth why nobody wants to log our property except on poor margins.

BUt I have the equiptment to get the logs out myself and the equiptment to move it to the mills. What I am lacking is the knowledge as to cut lengths and the relationship with the mill not to do all that work and get hosed when I deliver.

Have any of you undertook this task? Any words of wisdom or recomendations?

I have 4 oaks that got defoliated last year and need to go before the end of the year. I figure I would take them first in an effort to minimize my education costs. they are not dead but they may not recover from the moths that got ahold of them. Better to risk them than a big red oak.

I would say start with going to Mill and talk with them. They will let you know how/what trees and log length they are taking. Example:8in.minimum tops,16in.max bottums,lengths 8'4in.,10'4in,& 12'4in. Also make sure your loads consist of same type logs all hardwood,or pulpwood,or cedar,or pine you get the point.They wont seperate every log for you,just send it threw as all the lowest grade wood thats on trailer(then they will seperate for themselfs)..

 

[whistlepig]

They are cut in lengths to fill the length of a flat bed semi trailer. Two logs long. Hauling them to the mill is a considerable part of the cost of the project. I am pretty sure these were 53' trailers. I hunted a land lease a few years ago and part of it was being logged. I took a break one day, drove the ATV over, and watched them log. One guy felled the trees and topped them. There were three log skidders. The skidders would cinch three to four logs about 18" to 24" in diameter with a cable and drag them to a cradle. Next to the cradle was a crane with a claw. The crane would lift the logs and butt one end of them to a stop on the cradle. There was a hydraulically powered chain saw operated by the crane operator that cut them to length and then swung 180 degrees and loaded them on a trailer. What was left over was firewood. This was brutally hard work. The stuff you see now on TV isn't even close. These logs were going to a paper mill.

 

[trailbuilder]

The buyer determines specs as mentioned before. Oaks here up North are saw logs: veneer to #3 saw logs, then the rough ones are bolts, hardwood pulp and then firewood in that order. Mills here pay $700/thousand (BF) board feet to $80 a cord. Trucking is around $14/cord.

Cutting to grade is very important as you can see by the prices. For example if you cut up one tree that has Veneer logs for pulp or firewood you could loose several hundred dollars. It is best to educate yourself before bucking the tree, maybe a forester or log buyer will help you with this process.

Our first loggin job was my Dad and I with a chainsaw and JD 350C. We logged about 5 acres and cut about 20-30 red oak trees. We split $10,000 after 3 weeks of work and that was 25 years ago. The log buyer helped us to show us where to buck the stringers. This was a very select cut and we made 100 face cord of firewood from the tops and limbs. The woods still looked pretty when we were done, no skidder ruts and huge slash piles.

The professionals want a larger volume to make it worth their while to move their big equipment; if you are talking about 20-50 trees they are most likely not interested. Many will make a mess as well.

 

[Rio_Grande]

We are exactly in the middle of the 20-50 tree deal as we come in around 30 that I think are ready. We have a whole crop of Walnut coming in behind these that it is important to us do not recieve unnnecessary dammage as they still have around 20 more years before their harvest.

It has been frustrating but i compleetly understand all but a few who have just been trying to steal the tree value from us. While my back is still good and we have the equiptment why not do it. But as mentioned I got to learn first.

I dont know any mills here who deal in firewood or pulp wood. They all saw boards. But I am learning I may find that that is compleetly inaccurate. I discussed with my dad paying a cutter to come in drop and buck the logs for sale, the only problem with that is it would put us on an imeadiate time line which could be a bad thing depending on weather and the like.

I wouldnt be opposed to getting help in for the specialized parts of this.

 

[whistlepig]

We are exactly in the middle of the 20-50 tree deal as we come in around 30 that I think are ready. We have a whole crop of Walnut coming in behind these that it is important to us do not recieve unnnecessary dammage as they still have around 20 more years before their harvest.

It has been frustrating but i compleetly understand all but a few who have just been trying to steal the tree value from us. While my back is still good and we have the equiptment why not do it. But as mentioned I got to learn first.

I dont know any mills here who deal in firewood or pulp wood. They all saw boards. But I am learning I may find that that is compleetly inaccurate. I discussed with my dad paying a cutter to come in drop and buck the logs for sale, the only problem with that is it would put us on an imeadiate time line which could be a bad thing depending on weather and the like.

I wouldnt be opposed to getting help in for the specialized parts of this.

Have some one you can trust come and grade the trees and their value. There are folks that do this. Not the logger. That would be the fox watching the hen house.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Check to see if your local community college offers a class in log scaling. That would give you several hours in contact with a professional who knows what kind of logs the mills want you to manufacture. Yes, log length can make a difference. You can also much increase your return with judicious bucking, for instance one 18' log with 4 defects, vs. one 9' log with no defects and one 9' log with 4 defects. It all depends on what your mills are looking for.

There is a huge ignorance tax in timber. Get educated.

 

[trailbuilder]

The other factor to consider, now knowing you have other Harvest trees on site is can you or your father drop these trees without damaging the Walnut trees? The professionals have (HS's) Hot Saws, (FB's) Feller Bunchers and Processors which can drop the trees in the correct direction.

 

[Rio_Grande]

I agree trailbuilder, Problem is I cant get any intrest in doing the job. between preconcieved ideas of loggers who have never seen the site and at least one forester who says the white oaks are not worth cutting, Again without looking at them, we are so far reduced to doing it ourself. If I could get a standing buy with a reasonable agreement we would go for it. I dont really mind them making money on them for their work but i cant get anyone to look. The terrain turns everyone off and I can understand that, but I can get all over my place with the track loader and most of it with the tractor. I just think that for the amount of trees and the terrain nobody is interested.

 

[Egon]

As mentioned go talk to the mill and get all the information you can. You may also find there is a time limit after cutting which the mill adhere's to.

 

[RandyT]

If you decide to haul the logs yourself to the mill please check on the logging laws in your state. In Illinois a person can transport one log at a time without a logging permit. Two logs on a trailer can get you some hefty fines and lose of equipment.

 

[dmccarty]

How many acres are you talking about?

A small area to log is not going to be a money earner for some loggers. The company that timbered our land had millions of dollars worth of equipment. They had to earn a good amount to pay for the loggers and the equipment.

You need to find out how much your trees are worth.

You can figure out how to measure your trees. But then how much they worth per MBF(Thousand Board Feet). Price is determined by the market. NC had/has a telephone number you could call to get the price of timber by species and region for the previous quarter. That told you "yesterdays" price but not today.

The state does now have a website with this information.

The NC Extension office also has information and classes on timber management. Selling timber has certain tax issues you need to know. The Extension office can help. They also might be able to tell you the current market prices. Hopefully your State extension office has information on how to sell your timber. If not look at other states. There are state rules and regulations that can really bite you in the fanny if not followed.

The last time I checked, pine and hardwood was about $200 MBF in my area of NC.

Getting a forester is the way to sell timber. The forester should be working for you and works off a commission. The more you make, the more the forester makes. There are horror stories, that seem to be all too common, of people selling timber and getting ripped off. A forester protects or should protect your land and timber. Our forester advertised the sale of our timber. He cruised our timber so we knew what we had to sell and what it was likely worth.

If you only have a small number of trees and you can do the logging and hauling then you might not need a forester. You still will need to know what a far price for you timber and the tax implications. Your state extension office should be able to help.

Later,
Dan

 

[MossRoad]

Hire a forester VS a logger. The forester will want to get the biggest bang for your buck while the logger will want to get your wood for the lowest price possible.

 

[Rio_Grande]

Thanks for the replies. Our oriignal intentt was to hire a forester, I guess we need to call a few more see if they will call back. We just arent having any luck getting interest in the property.

 

[Pilot]

No one is interested? That suggests they can't make any money, which should tell you something, and that is that there isn't enough value there to pay for their time and expenses and still give you a profit. Which suggests you are right to consider doing it yourself.

About loggers, since there has been so much bad mouthing about loggers in this thread. Sure, loggers might rip you off, but like everyone else, there are honest and decent loggers out there, too. Only hire a logger who works on a percentage basis and get copies of all the scale tickets. Get references and look at the work sites.

If you have so little timber or if it is of such low value that loggers aren't interested, then you might not have enough value there to pay for a forester either. But a forester might come out and take a look and you can learn a lot from the visit. Same thing with a logger, and you can learn even more by asking 2 or 3 to take a look. You don't have to hire any of them.

I would be worried about falling the trees. Judging the direction of fall with hardwoods could be tough and dangerous if you are wrong.

 

[magicheater]

White Oak around here is of less value than poplar. Red oak is a different story. I logged a lot of all of them and historically white oak was best used for firewood or have a sawyer come in and cut for personal use. The mill value was always minimal. White oak is great for sills as it does not rot like red oak.

 

[Will_C]

I'll assume you can run the saws and equipment to drop the trees and cut them raodside, and you can get them to the mill...as others have said, you need to find what the mill wants in terms of length. Grading timber is tricky, an option would be to see if the mil would have someone that could come out and buck the tree, or find a logger than would buck the trees up on the landing. Wrong bucking cuts can turn a veener tree into a low grade log.

Will

 

[Rio_Grande]

There is no intent on my part to slam or speak ill of any loggers or logging professionals. we cant even get anyone to call us back! They dont even know what we have or dont have. I guess the industry in our area may be so good that they dont have to look for places to cut. I am not gonna lie to them or otherwise but nobody save 2 people will call me back. One of them was a forester and without seeing the property told me the soil was poor in my part of the world and the trees are all junk (without coming out or even really nailing down where they actually are) and the second was gonna call me back later in the week and we would "get together and walk the property" but no luck and he dosent answer the phone now.

I realize there may not be any money to be made for them on my place but how would any of them know they wont look at it.

 

[magicheater]

They may be doing you a favor by not calling back. Maybe it would cost more than the timber is worth?......... Harvest it your self, cut it 6" longer(8' 6", 12' 6", etc) The extra 2" won't kill you on small scale. 10' logs don't scale well, try to avoid them. Take into consideration the sweep of the log if you can in addition to the blemishes. You may just have timber that no one wants. Find other options. Good Luck.

 

[Taylortractornut]

Here the mils have you by insurance. You have to have 1 million coverage for the paper mill or one other mill. THeres 2 others you can go to that take it and the other will take it at areduced price then take it to the paper mill. Something else the mills have you on is trailer set up. They have to have a drop frame trailer. When they changed over big money was made cutting out lof truck trailer frame rails. A friend of mine has a gooseneck with bolt on bolsters that meet the mills frame spacing. He can go to 2 of the local mills/ pulp brokers.

I have a freind that does a select cutting for high quality mature timber and he makes a killing. He started with a 75 Ford F600 with a side loader and a an old tractor with an arch 4 years ago and now he has a 99 KW with a self mounted loader and nice JD skidder.