Dog Training Question....

[Sigarms]

Richard

One product that we've had good sucess with using as a tool for some dogs is the Dogtra training collar. I understand that some would consider such a tool as being lazy and not being able to actually train a dog, but when we had a lot of dogs through our house, we found this tool invaluable for some dogs that had some very bad habits.

Dog Obedience Training Equipment & Collars | Obedience Collars & Equipment

I do believe you do get further per training with more positive reinforcement than negative reinforcement, but the one thing we love about this kind of collar is the "vibrate mode". The issue with negative reinforcement is if you don't apply the negative reinforcement directly at the time of the unfavorable behavior, you're wasting your time IMO.

I understand some would consider "shocking" a dog inhumane, but these models have multiple settings for the "shock value" that I have even used on myself to see what it's like (around my leg, not my neck). My one model goes up to 124 on the "shock value", and I've found that depending on the personality of the dog, anywhere between 10-30 will get their attention pretty quick, anything over 40 and the'll yelp.

The key IMO in using a tool like this is to use over time is to vibrate first, then shock if the dog isn't correcting the inappropriate behavior (and at lower settings, the "shock" will get their attention). The dog needs to associate the vibration with the potential of the shock. What I've found is over a period of short time, you never really have to use the shock mode because the dog will associate the vibration with the negative reinforcement. Ironically enough, the one who I know consider crazy is smart enough to understand that when this collar is on him, he actually listens better. Some dogs we don't worry about if they go walking with us out back on our property, with others, this tool is invaluable as they don't have to be on a lead next to you.

We've also found with a lot of dogs, a small spray bottle with water works wonders for negative reinforcement. Spay the dog on the snout for negative behavior. Funny, with some dogs, when they would see that red spray bottle, they'd settle right down. Then again, we had aussie shepard that we "inherited" that was chained up 24/7 before we got her that loved water and she viewed that bottle as a positive reinforcement LOL

 

[Sigarms]

@ Sigarms... I was referring to tying the owners outside for 24/7, not the pups. I agree 110% about not getting a dog if you're just going to tie it up. As mentioned before my current pet lived the first year of his life that way. I literally had to teach him how to be a dog; a couple of times I wondered if he would survive the experience.

I apologize for being an idiot and misunderstanding you.

Unwanted dogs and unwanted kids hit's a nerve with me.

 

[MoKelly]

To the OP; sometimes what people consider most humane is actually the worst thing for the animal. I laid into Ruger with the palm of my hand after nothing else I tried would keep him from chasing cars; he hasn't done it since.

How did you know the dog knew exactly why he was being punished? That is my biggest problem - knowing how to discipline the dog such that the dog knows why he is being disciplined (ie what behavior was bad).

I’ve read you need to discipline immediately after the event. Not always clear as lots of stuff is usually going on.

In your case, the dog chases a car. You have to get him back then apply discipline. How does the dog know the bad behavior was chasing the car v. coming back or any other of the many things going on around.

Any help is appreciated. This is my biggest challenge in training.

MoKelly

 

[Sigarms]

In your case, the dog chases a car. You have to get him back then apply discipline. How does the dog know the bad behavior was chasing the car v. coming back or any other of the many things going on around.

That's the nice thing (and perhaps lazy to some) with a training collar. You apply the negative reinforcement with the collar during the unwanted event, not afterwards.

With the last dog in our house, he'd always go after the neighbors dog when the neighbors dog stops over (I don't appreciate agressive behavior from dogs in my care towards people or other dogs). I take him outside and if the neighbors dog wants to come over to "play" with our other dogs, this dog I've had issues with now keeps his distance from our neighbors dog with help of that collar. He (this new dog) would get into some pretty serious fights with other dogs (always in general with larger than himself, go figure), which is why the pound was going to put him down to begin with (if I didn't say it, very long story how he ended up with us).

 

[MoKelly]

That's the nice thing (and perhaps lazy to some) with a training collar. You apply the negative reinforcement with the collar during the unwanted event, not afterwards.

With the last dog in our house, he'd always go after the neighbors dog when the neighbors dog stops over (I don't appreciate agressive behavior from dogs in my care towards people or other dogs). I take him outside and if the neighbors dog wants to come over to "play" with our other dogs, this dog I've had issues with now keeps his distance from our neighbors dog with help of that collar. He (this new dog) would get into some pretty serious fights with other dogs (always in general with larger than himself, go figure), which is why the pound was going to put him down to begin with (if I didn't say it, very long story how he ended up with us).

Thanks! That sounds smart (I should have thought about that). I’m going to get a training collar.

MoKelly

 

[Bendboater]

Richard,

Good job on trying to help Rufas. I suspect that if you are willing to put in the work and resources (time and money) it will take, you have a good chance of winding up with a "well enough" socialized life long friend. It probably won't hurt either that you are starting with one of the statistically smartest dogs (the other being full sized poodles) ....... though I personally believe that Australian Shepherds are smarter than either

Thoughts on finding trainers:
- Ask veterinarians (call several to, hopefully, find a recommendation by more than one).
- Ask shelters in your area ("no kill" shelters may be of more help). Again, get several recommendations.
- Contact Border Collie Rescue ― Border Collie Rescue ― ADOPTIONS and ask them for recommendations and/or guidance.
- If you have anyone in the area that does dog agility (reach out to agility groups), they will probably have some great suggestions. The reason I suggest this is that Border Collies excel at agility (and, frankly, many other sports) and most likely there are Border Collie owners who have lots of training information in any agility group
- Border Collie Breeders.....this may be hit or miss, but it dosn't hurt to make a few phone calls to see if they can recommend some trainers.
- Other resources????? no doubt there are many others that you will discover in your research.

Dog trainers (many nothing more than self-declared "experts") have widely differing styles. Anything from a dominance over the animal to a free spirited, anything goes, approach. Whatever their style, it probably needs to be in line with yours (i.e.; how did you raise your children? or how were you and your wife raised???) or you simply won't follow his/her advice once the program is over. Keep in mind that dog trainers train the dog owners and the owner trains the dog so in the end, you are the trainer. Yes, there are some trainers that take the dog for a number of weeks and work with it. So if you don't connect with a particular trainer or like his/her style, then find a different one. Personally, I suggest using multiple trainers (not necessarily at the same time) to try different styles (poor Rufas, it will be somewhat confusing if you change styles too many times, but dogs are very adaptable). Border Collies (breed for herding) will take a somewhat different style of training than a Golden Retriever (breed for hunting) will. So a trainer that owns Border Collies would be helpful.

You may find it helpful to learn what Rufas was "designed" for, his expected temperament, and expectations (yup, different dogs have different needs). Of course, genetics is not the only thing that defines a dog, but it's his basic core that you can not change. (Nature vs. Nuture.....where you can only change Nuture).
The AKC dog breed selector may help Dog Breed Selector - What Breed Of Dog Should I Get?
There are many other sites, just search for dog breeds and/or Border Collie's.

I believe that part of this "journey" should also involve you and your wife setting down to discuss your goals for the dog, how willing you are to put in the time and money it is going to take, and agree together on the style of training you want to employ (you probably won't understand what I am saying until you have worked with a few different trainers). You guys have to decide in advance what behaviors you will correct and what you will let slide. Same with food/treats, and when/where he is to eat. Oh yea, don't forget praise. Dogs want to please their owners so don't forget to praise him......much more than scold (like 10X as often).......heck, just like you probably would with a child. Otherwise, Rufas will very quickly learn to whom he is going to is go to when he thinks he might be scolded. Body posture, tone of voice, even eye movement will communicate more to a dog (esp. a Border Collie) than just saying the word "come". These are things you guys need to agree on before you get too serious about training.

Food. You sure don't want to put a lot of time and money into Rufas only to have him not live as long as possible, have higher than needed vet bills, or have food related behavior issues. Again, lots of "experts" out there (and no doubt, your dog trainers will have their own suggestions). But do some research on dog food yourself before just blindly following anyone's advice. A good place to start is: Dog Food Reviews and Ratings | Dog Food Advisor
Yup, you got it. Good quality food either takes more money or will cost you lots of time (and probably even more money) to properly make.

Best of wishes and I hope we hear back from you in a couple years that it is all going great.

 

[Jstpssng]

How did you know the dog knew exactly why he was being punished? That is my biggest problem - knowing how to discipline the dog such that the dog knows why he is being disciplined (ie what behavior was bad).

I’ve read you need to discipline immediately after the event. Not always clear as lots of stuff is usually going on.

In your case, the dog chases a car. You have to get him back then apply discipline. How does the dog know the bad behavior was chasing the car v. coming back or any other of the many things going on around.

Any help is appreciated. This is my biggest challenge in training.

MoKelly

You're absolutely right, of course. In my case I was chasing after him while he chased the farmer who's orchard I was working in. Tom stopped rather than letting the dog chase him out into the main highway. He never chased another vehicle, and the following winter would walk Ruger to the end of the driveway to watch the plow truck go by, just to reinforce it. A shock collar definitely would have been better.

 

[PILOON]

I've had my fair share of dogs.
All kinds from mutts to purebreds.
Showing dominance works, stare him down and point at him.
Disobedience I've handled by swatting with a folded newspaper combined with a firm NO BAD DOG.
(folded newspaper simply hurts his ego)

Am I a pro, NO, but I've never had serious dog problems,

EXCEPT one dog that only wanted to attack only ONE person.
We had been robbed and that one person was the prime suspect and golly I always believed the dog was right. (no concrete proof, however)

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^^
That dog also may just have been picking up on your animosity for that individual.

 

[Dftodd]

As far as dog trainers go, do your research.

Some are as stated above "Self proclaimed experts".

Some are the real deal. Don't be afraid to ask for their credentials.

See if you can check them out and watch a training session as well.

The one we chose had group training sessions. So we went down on a Saturday and watched one of their classes. It also gave us an opportunity to talk to some of the clients.

We actually have two German shepherds in our family that have been professionally trained, by two seperate trainers.

Our daughters shepherd was trained 1 on 1 with a trainer and my daughter. No other dogs or people were involved.

Our shepherd was in a group training with about 20 other dogs. Those dogs and owners were her distractions.

Our daughters shepherd has a couple quirks while on leash. No people, or dogs can get near him while he's on a leash or he will go full protection mode. The exception is a few select family members that he's comfortable with, as well as our shepherd (his sister) and my daughters other dog. He has to be muzzled to go to the vets office. I wouldn't take him any where else out in public.

We've found the group sessions worked better for us for a well rounded training. The dog gets to learn socialization skills around people and other animals. As well as lot's of distractions to help bring the training together.

 

[Dftodd]

I've had my fair share of dogs.
All kinds from mutts to purebreds.
Showing dominance works, stare him down and point at him.
Disobedience I've handled by swatting with a folded newspaper combined with a firm NO BAD DOG.
(folded newspaper simply hurts his ego)

Am I a pro, NO, but I've never had serious dog problems,

EXCEPT one dog that only wanted to attack only ONE person.
We had been robbed and that one person was the prime suspect and golly I always believed the dog was right. (no concrete proof, however)

Our shepherd is a people person for the most part. But she has puffed up and growled at two people.

On was a contractor running cable down our street. Had a blow hard personality. He said "I've never met a dog that didn't like me" put his hand out and took two steps towards our shepherd. She puffed up, let out a growl that resonated from her toenails, and put herself between me and the contractor.

That was the first time she had ever done that.

Second time was leaving a store in town. A guy was standing there by my truck as we approached. Guy held his hand out and started towards her and she puffed up and growled. He had a similar personality as the first guy.

I've had a kid scare the living daylights out of me in the pet store with her. One kid popped out behind a rack really fast and before I could react the kid had his arms around her neck giving Gypsy a hug. She never batted an eye and gave the kid lots of kisses.

I did corner the kids mom with one of the store employees that witnessed it, and had a talk with her about teaching her son the proper way to approach a dog.

 

[Jstpssng]

^^^^^
JMHO, but if a dog is in a public place it should be trustworthy around people. Still, I wouldn't trust any dog including my own in that situation. You were right to have a talk with the kid's mother.

 

[Alien]

We have a training collar that we bought to stop one of our dogs from jumping on people when they visit. She gets very excited. A secondary reason was that some neighbours often walk up the road and she would race up to the fence barking excitedly and we wanted that to cease.
The collar has 3 modes with different power levels on each mode. It can also select between two different dogs. Ther is a beep mode, buzz mode and shock mode.
We usually only need the buzzer mode and she immediately stops. Lately I just need to put the collar on her and she knows to behave without using the controller.
One day we had an aggressive bull mastiff come visit. He is our sons dog and likes to bully ours.
I put the collar on him just in case he got frisky. He suddenly turned on one of our dogs and I hit the shocker button. I didn,t realize it was nearly full power. That dog howled and stopped in his tracks and never tried to touch the other dogs again. We don,t even need to collar him now. I guess he thinks it could happen again. Most dogs learn quickly.
The battery in the collar is rechargable and lasts for weeks, however I dont leave it on when it's not necessary. I would highly recommend a collar in your case. He is intelligent enough to learn very quickly.
BTW. The trainer was less than AU$50 . Many are overpriced.

This is our one. Remote Anti Bark Collar Rechargeable Dog Training Collar Vibration and Stimulation Static Pulse 3 Training Modes | Crazy Sales

 

[Dftodd]

^^^^^
JMHO, but if a dog is in a public place it should be trustworthy around people. Still, I wouldn't trust any dog including my own in that situation. You were right to have a talk with the kid's mother.

Shes really good with people. That kid just made me nervous with how he approached her.

The two people that shes growled at were a little shady in my estimation. She probably sensed something that I couldn't pick up on.

She's really good a cleaning pet store employees out of treats and absolutely loves kids.

I've also seen her go out of her way to cheer someone up. This elderly gentlemen had just gotten some bad news from the vet when we walked in. The man said we could sit next to him and she insisted on sitting right between me and him.

The man started petting her, then she stood up and put her front paws on his chair and he just stroked and hugged on her crying. There wasn't a dry eye in the place.

The two times shes had to stay overnight at the vets office, she would spend the day hanging out with the girls behind the counter greeting people The girls taught her some bad habits though. Someone would come in and she would put her paws up on the counter and peak over at them to get some ear scratches.

Another time was at a hotel. I had just come in from walking her around 6:30 am. This elderly man was traveling with his son. As soon as I walked in the door and the old man saw her, he held his hands out to her. She dragged me across the room to that old man. He sat there loving on her and just beaming. He slipped her some bacon and let her sip some of his warm coffee saw the son a little later on and he said Gypsy just made his dads day

 

[PILOON]

^^^^^
That dog also may just have been picking up on your animosity for that individual.

Never believed so.

The suspected person was a local delivery guy that had been present when mother insisted on delivery on specifically the day before leaving for vacation. (and had said just that)
Making it worst the suspect had crapped (sh-t) on the floor leaving is scent behind.

It was without any warning that the dog went into his 'attack' mode when the suspect came near the door01 and at that time we never suspected him.
It was only later, putting 2 + 2 together, that we came to that conclusion.

 

[Alien]

Shes really good with people. That kid just made me nervous with how he approached her.

The two people that shes growled at were a little shady in my estimation. She probably sensed something that I couldn't pick up on.

She's really good a cleaning pet store employees out of treats and absolutely loves kids.

I've also seen her go out of her way to cheer someone up. This elderly gentlemen had just gotten some bad news from the vet when we walked in. The man said we could sit next to him and she insisted on sitting right between me and him.

The man started petting her, then she stood up and put her front paws on his chair and he just stroked and hugged on her crying. There wasn't a dry eye in the place.

The two times shes had to stay overnight at the vets office, she would spend the day hanging out with the girls behind the counter greeting people The girls taught her some bad habits though. Someone would come in and she would put her paws up on the counter and peak over at them to get some ear scratches.

Another time was at a hotel. I had just come in from walking her around 6:30 am. This elderly man was traveling with his son. As soon as I walked in the door and the old man saw her, he held his hands out to her. She dragged me across the room to that old man. He sat there loving on her and just beaming. He slipped her some bacon and let her sip some of his warm coffee saw the son a little later on and he said Gypsy just made his dads day

Beautiful emotional story. Thanks.

 

[MoKelly]

Beautiful emotional story. Thanks.

I’ve never experienced it, but I do believe some dogs have a sense that can tell if a human is good or not so good. I also believe dogs can sense human pain.

They can be quite amazing creatures and the best pet you could ever wish.

MoKelly

 

[Jstpssng]

I’ve never experienced it, but I do believe some dogs have a sense that can tell if a human is good or not so good. I also believe dogs can sense human pain.

They can be quite amazing creatures and the best pet you could ever wish.

MoKelly

That's why it drives some of us crazy to see them abused.

 

[Alien]

My wife was reading an article where dogs have been trained to detect covid with a high degree of accuracy.

 

[Sigarms]

We have a training collar that we bought to stop one of our dogs from jumping on people when they visit. She gets very excited. A secondary reason was that some neighbours often walk up the road and she would race up to the fence barking excitedly and we wanted that to cease.
The collar has 3 modes with different power levels on each mode. It can also select between two different dogs. Ther is a beep mode, buzz mode and shock mode.
We usually only need the buzzer mode and she immediately stops. Lately I just need to put the collar on her and she knows to behave without using the controller.
One day we had an aggressive bull mastiff come visit. He is our sons dog and likes to bully ours.
I put the collar on him just in case he got frisky. He suddenly turned on one of our dogs and I hit the shocker button. I didn,t realize it was nearly full power. That dog howled and stopped in his tracks and never tried to touch the other dogs again. We don,t even need to collar him now. I guess he thinks it could happen again. Most dogs learn quickly.
The battery in the collar is rechargable and lasts for weeks, however I dont leave it on when it's not necessary. I would highly recommend a collar in your case. He is intelligent enough to learn very quickly.
BTW. The trainer was less than AU$50 . Many are overpriced.

This is our one. Remote Anti Bark Collar Rechargeable Dog Training Collar Vibration and Stimulation Static Pulse 3 Training Modes | Crazy Sales

If you know the dog is getting ready for a fight, a shock collar may work before the fight starts. If the dog is in a "full fledge fight", a shock collar may do nothing but enhance the fight instinct in the dog and will accomplish nothing but to motivate the dog to fight more. Something to be aware of. I've seen this from first hand experience.

I checked your link out for the collar. May I ask who actually makes the collar and what is the range that the collar will work out to? Sometimes you do get what you pay for and it's nice to compare apples to apples. EDIT, I RELOOKED, LOOKS LIKE 650 YARDS. MY DOGTRA SHOWS A RANGE OF OVER TWICE THAT RANGE, YET I KNOW FOR A FACT FOR NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT THE MORE EXPENSIVE DOGTRA DOESN'T ACTUALLY DO WHAT IT CLAIMS (NO ISSUES OR COMPLAINTS ON MY END THOUGH) SO I WONDER WHAT AN CHEAPER UNIT WILL ACTUALLY GET YOU PER RANGE).

I may sound cruel at times when it comes to dog training, but my dogs are pretty much on par with how much I love my kids:laughing: (then again, perhaps that could make me a bad father because my boys know I'll tell them "no" more than my wife LOL).

Kind of funny when you tell someone with a straight face that the biggest difference between dogs and kids are that you can't put training collars on kids without having the department of social services visit you but if you put one on your dog, no one calls you:laughing: