Do computes and high-end electronics belong in tractors?

[Dr_Zinj]

Just how fancy an ignition and emission controls should a tractor really have?
How many sensors do you really need on the engine and transmission?

And what about the comfort factor? A decent seat is great, but do you really need a craft-matic adjustable chair in it's place? I can see sticking a decent stereo in a harvester you're going to be living in for weeks at a time; but do your really need more than an iPad and headphones driving a CUT?

 

[Transit]

It is a matter of degrees, if you are a pro that makes his living harvesting or running a large scale farm than those long days go easer and more efferent. Remember the more complex the more to go wrong.

 

[nspec]

I would argue that anyone who doesn't accept electronics in their equipment at this point is living in the stone ages. Electronics in equipment have been around for years by now and are very well tested and proven. They have made tractors better in a lot of ways. It is a different set of skills needed by a mechanic to diagnose a problem now, but that doesn't necessarily make it worse.

I'm all for simplicity, and I love the muscle tractors of the late 70's early 80's, - heck I own a few Farmalls dating back to the early to mid 40's - but you have to admit, the new tractors are really much better. By better, I don't necessarily mean more reliable or longer lasting. What I mean is they are more productive, use much less fuel per horsepower, and are leaps and bounds more comfortable and easy to operate.

You may say sure, that may be so, but there is also much more to go wrong. Yes, there is. But all this technology is also very reliable at this point and users can expect hundreds if not thousands of trouble free hours.

 

[tulenutn2o]

I'm afraid that emissions are here to stay. We missed the boat back in the 1960s. All the yuppies want the safety devices, and everybody wants "features" in their cars, trucks, at home and on their tractors. It's a sad state of affairs. Anybody seen the new drive-by-wire tractors?

Drive by wire tractor is probably better than the drive by wire cars.

 

[20 20]

I was just talking with my wife the other day about this. It is allmost like we've gone full circle, we put _____in place to help make things easier to run and more dependable. Then we put ____ in place along with ______ and ______ and lets not forget ______in the end we're back where we started, a piece of equipment that won't run and a 100 different places/reason to check. I've allways said keep it simple, easier to run and keep check of. We do not have to lose comforts but we sure could cut down on all the extra bull that does nothing except waste money's. Now how about that 15% ethanol

 

[jake98]

I heard that the newer version of my tractor went up by 3 hp, and all of that power gets used up in meeting the higher emission standard.

 

[Storm56]

They have their place for some for sure. I personally do not want electronics on my tractor, bad enough I do not have the tools needed to fix the electronics in my car. I do not need that headache on my tractors. I actually bought what may be the last tractor I will need, a 2009 McCormick C80L, NO electronics.

I used to be an electronic service engineer for a computer company back in the 80's, so I know a thing about them. The more whistles and bells we put on our systems, the more problems. We had a saying back then: Simple is fast, fine, and lasts a long time. Guarantee you I do not need to be paying a mechanic $80 an hour to chase down some electronic problem on my tractor 3 years after it is out of warranty because the computer thinks the hitch is down when it is up and will not let the tractor move. Oh and by the way that stupid sensor is buried in the bowels of the rear end.

 

[jake98]

If you have a tractor that has bowels and a rear end you have some really old technology there..

 

[jake98]

Yep, and a little caster oil keeps it goin'.

It's enough to make you glad it's not the good old days anymore..

 

[lostcause]

it's certainly a tough call as to whether progress is always a good thing. i remember hearing what i'd consider "old timers" complaining about how carburetors are better than fuel injection because they can tinker with them. my experience has been that i'd rather have the fuel injection, because i don't have to tinker with it, and it's pretty much 100% reliable.

a valid point was made earlier about how much ends up in the scrap heap because the cost of repairs is too high now. in a few years i suspect a lot of hybrid and electric cars will be headed to an early grave because battery replacement on an older electric car isn't cost effective compared to buying another vehicle altogether. with tracors you have historically seen up to 50 years of service for many models, and as they become more complex, there certainly will come a time when a high-tech repair is not worth the cost, and that will be long before that 50 year time.

used tractor parts could always be kept for years with little care as to how they were stored, but as electronics become more common, used items will have to be carefully stored to prevent moisture damage. you can't leave a pile of circuit boards out along the fence line and scavenge parts off them years later, and manufacturers will stop carrying those parts long before the tractor wears out.

i don't have an answer to the question, and i'm not even certain i have a valid opinion. creature comforts and functionality increases are nice, but will i be happy with a shortened lifespan? will this help contribute to solid waste problems? we all need a crystal ball.

 

[looknlearn]

I have a tractor that is almost 60 years old. In 60 years I don't think anyone will be driving any of these new compact tractors. I may be wrong but electrics are so touchy and are shot if you get water in it, if mice though it was tasty,or if it burns a little. Same reason I like old cars. I might be strange but I think reliability and fix-ability for me is better than comfort. I'll take anything that is mechanical cause it is much more reliable in my experience.

So in response to the title question, no I don't think computers belong in tractors, but I can see where it has made it easier for large farmers.

 

[riptides]

complex is getting simplier all the time.

That being said, the level of in field diagnosis being performed by me is also dropping....

A few machines I've run, no way could I fix 'em if they broke, I imagine in a few years the MTBF will be so good as to out live my poor soul.

 

[dex3361]

I am able to diagnose the electrical and electronic issues but if I keep a complex electronic tractor I doubt there will be parts a few miles down the road. I vote simplicity. If I were to keep my tractor and swap every 5 years then i would not care. But for me that is not the case. I buy and I keep. Unless I catch JTs disease.:laughing::laughing:

 

[kjung17]

Anyone with a JD e-Hydro machine has already switched to computer control. The new Premium tractors from Deere are, with few exceptions, fly-by-wire. Not a cable or linkage on the machine.

 

[First one]

Just how fancy an ignition and emission controls should a tractor really have?
How many sensors do you really need on the engine and transmission?

And what about the comfort factor? A decent seat is great, but do you really need a craft-matic adjustable chair in it's place? I can see sticking a decent stereo in a harvester you're going to be living in for weeks at a time; but do you really need more than an iPod and headphones driving a CUT?

I would rather have sensors to let you know when something's not right and will shut down your tractor instead of finding out the hard way- $$.
I know that I'm not getting any (older) I mean younger.
If I'm going to be working, I want the most comfortable seat I can get, why not?
As far as the tunes go , I like being able to hear what the tractor is doing as much as the music . No head phones for me. I guess if you don't have a cab then you really don't need the best you can get , where it would be exposed to the weather. Still if I didn't have the cab ,I'd still want a kick *** stereo system, makes the day go by faster.

 

[nspec]

There is a very simple explanation for why the old equipment lasted 50+ years and the new compact tractors won't.

Displacement.

Those old machines had huge displacement for the horsepower they produced, and ran at very low rpms. My Farmalls max out at 1400 RPMs. The Kubota will run 2800. Twice the speed.

The old tractors were made out of very heavy robust castings with huge internal parts. I've attached a picture of the bull gear (final drive) from my 1947 Farmall. It's huge - looks like brand new, right? There is a reason for that. It was built to last.

Electronics simply have nothing to do with this. I've run machines with 20 year old electronics in them that have a minimal amount of problems. The large farm tractors and construction equipment have been immersed in electronics for many years now. They are still built very heavily. The only reason people are freaking out is because the little hobby tractors that are so mainstream for the masses now are just starting to see the technology that has been available on bigger machines for longer than anyone realizes.

 

[wvpolekat]

I've attached a picture of the bull gear (final drive) from my 1947 Farmall. It's huge - looks like brand new, right? There is a reason for that. It was built to last.

You are aware they were known for breaking those, right?

 

[nspec]

Not on the A's they weren't. The 60 series had some issues though.

That particular gear in my picture saw many years of hard service and the cuts on the gears are like brand new.

 

[lostcause]

There is a very simple explanation for why the old equipment lasted 50+ years and the new compact tractors won't.

Displacement.

Those old machines had huge displacement for the horsepower they produced, and ran at very low rpms. My Farmalls max out at 1400 RPMs. The Kubota will run 2800. Twice the speed.

The old tractors were made out of very heavy robust castings with huge internal parts. I've attached a picture of the bull gear (final drive) from my 1947 Farmall. It's huge - looks like brand new, right? There is a reason for that. It was built to last.

Electronics simply have nothing to do with this. I've run machines with 20 year old electronics in them that have a minimal amount of problems. The large farm tractors and construction equipment have been immersed in electronics for many years now. They are still built very heavily. The only reason people are freaking out is because the little hobby tractors that are so mainstream for the masses now are just starting to see the technology that has been available on bigger machines for longer than anyone realizes.

i do agree that the smaller displacement may be likely to lead to a shorter lifespan, but regardless, if you had that older tractor with full blown electronics, i don't think you would be able to get the same lifespan with the same (lack of) maintenance and storage care.

 

[eepete]

computers, yes. High-end electronics, beats me. Not on the list but state of the art electronics most definitely.

The new electronics that does stuff like run lights and relays have the ability to see if the wiring is OK. If the bulb is blown or the wiring is cut, it can detect that. When the device is off, it puts out a very small current to see that the wiring is OK. If you short the line to ground or plus, it can tell there is a short and does not pop a fuse because the electronics that drives the line is current limited. So it's pretty nice- you know you have a problem before it bites you, having the problem does not take out other systems, and the exact nature of the problem is known.

Now to take advantage of this, the various computers have to talk to each other so that the operator display can let you know what the problem is. So we have good and bad sides to it all. More complexity, but better diagnostics. I do object to the information that the computer system know not being made directly available to the owner of the tractor. It's as cheezy as when there were "special manufacturers tools" you had to have to work on stuff. And of course the computers certainly help in meeting the emission standards.

Now as for reliability, I remember being interviewed when I got out of school in the late 70's by an automobile manufacturer that was getting more and more into computer control. So in 30 some years a lot of the bugs have been worked out. Put another way, we are at a point where failures are more likely to be the result of stupid cost reductions than core technology unknowns.

As for spare parts, my Deere has a box that houses the transmission controller, and another for the display. That box has the circuit board with the computer and other electronics on it, and several connectors that have water tight boots on them, and the connectors themselves have the pins water tight. When you look at the tech manual, there are extra pins on the connectors. So if the chips used on the circuit board go obsolete, the manufacture can cut a new circuit board and port over the software. There is nothing to keep them from using a handful of different board designs over a large number of tractor models. In fact, there are as many different good reasons for doing that as there are for using the same engine block in a variety of tractors.

So the matter of "will you have spares in 20 years" is not a technical issues, but a management issue. Did the company keep using it's core form factor (box size and connector type/pinout) so they could keep the design up to date? Did the hardware and software guys make the software so it can port over to faster processors without any major re-work? Time will tell.

Yes, I'm biased on this too... We all like to see thing implemented in technologies we can work with or understand .

Pete