Diesel Engine Oil

[DeereMann]

buickanddeere,

I think you're spot-on with your comments. EPA has long outlived its mandate from 1970 Clean Air Act. No new government agencies are ever dissolved after fulfilling their mission - they just look for new & inappropriate missions, such as in this discussion thread. This particular issue must come to a head, however, as intra-country road transport can not be outsourced by the 1%'s, despite the lobbyist money.

Stay tuned for more from the best government that money can buy-off.

 

[tomf]

I'd just thought I would throw this tidbit in the mix for your consideration. Here is the definition of oil classification SG:

SG - 1989 Gasoline Engine Service (Obsolete) - Category SF denotes service typical of gasoline engines in passenger cars, vans, and light trucks operating under manufacturers recommended maintenance procedures. Category SG oils include the performance properties of API Service Category CC. (Certain manufacturers of gasoline engines require oils that also meet the higher diesel engine Category CD.) Oils developed for this service provide improved control of engine deposits, oil oxidation, and engine wear relative to oils developed for previous categories. These oils also provide protection against rust and corrosion. Oils meeting API Service Category SG may be used when API Engine Service Category SF, SE, SF/CC or SE/CC are recommended.

If you tractor require CC, as my B2400 does, then any engine oil you buy today will meet that standard.

 

[msparks]

I sell oils, and yes you want to use a diesel rated oil. Automotive oils have a lot of additives removed because of emission controls. Like others have said, you need more of antiwear additives because diesels work harder as well as dispersants that help keep the soot from agglomerating (sticking together)

 

[3930dave]

A lot of folks go the other way. Rotella T6 has a gasoline car following, and a cult like motorcycle (wet clutch) fan base. Decent multi-purpose synthetic, at a reasonable price.

Rgds, D.

 

[WilliamBos]

A lot of folks go the other way. Rotella T6 has a gasoline car following, and a cult like motorcycle (wet clutch) fan base. Decent multi-purpose synthetic, at a reasonable price.

Rgds, D.

Been tempted to try in my truck, but manual states no 40 weight!!

 

[SageBrush]

I run diesel rated oil in almost everything to make things simple. Only the Honda Accord gets 0w20 here, I like 5w40 or 15w40 in everything else. Every once in a while a 15w40 will go on sale. I got 3 cases of Delvac for $9 per gallon, pays to stock up! But, watch out with the new cars and trucks, most are 5w30 or 5w20 these days. For those you could run 10w30 Delvac or Rotella and get a more heavy duty oil for bearing wear. But, I doubt you would see any real benefit in a gas engine.

 

[3930dave]

Been tempted to try in my truck, but manual states no 40 weight!!

I pay attention to the factory viscosity ratings, it's there for a reason. Additives have changed in oil, for various reasons, many EPA driven - the general push is for lighter viscosities - not my natural goto, but does seem to work. I'd being doing a great deal of research (esp. on flow rates) before going to a 40W on a modern truck engine.

I'd say the best value for T6 5W40 is around a busy farm, with lots of operators - it might not be the optimum oil for everything but prevents somebody who doesn't pay attention from dumping 15W40 into a 0W20 sump.

I'm not that worried about HD diesel oil poisoning gasoline catalytics - I don't think it is the problem it is made out to be, and aftermarket cats for most applications are not expensive even if it is true.

Rgds, D.

 

[avc8130]

A lot of folks go the other way. Rotella T6 has a gasoline car following, and a cult like motorcycle (wet clutch) fan base. Decent multi-purpose synthetic, at a reasonable price.

Rgds, D.

I used to be one of those fans. I had run 5W40 Rotella T6 in all of my motorcycles...until this stupid CJ-4 certification. Now the oil SUCKS. It can't keep the transmission shifting nice on my bike past 3k miles. The oil change interval is 6k, but I can't make it there with the latest Rotella. It definitely has something to do with the break down of the oil, because with a fresh change the shifting is noticeably smooth and consistent. Around the 3k mark the shifting is horribly notchy and takes serious effort.

I want my old oil back! I don't have DPFs on any of my diesels, why can't I have the GOOD oil still?

ac

 

[WilliamBos]

I pay attention to the factory viscosity ratings, it's there for a reason. Additives have changed in oil, for various reasons, many EPA driven - the general push is for lighter viscosities - not my natural goto, but does seem to work. I'd being doing a great deal of research (esp. on flow rates) before going to a 40W on a modern truck engine.

I'd say the best value for T6 5W40 is around a busy farm, with lots of operators - it might not be the optimum oil for everything but prevents somebody who doesn't pay attention from dumping 15W40 into a 0W20 sump.

I'm not that worried about HD diesel oil poisoning gasoline catalytics - I don't think it is the problem it is made out to be, and aftermarket cats for most applications are not expensive even if it is true.

Rgds, D.

Aftermarket cats are worthless garbage, especially with bi annual e testing. Staying OEM.. BTDT!!
As for oil, I stick with what HM recommends for my truck, 5w30, or 10w30 in warmer weather.

 

[avc8130]

I'm not that worried about HD diesel oil poisoning gasoline catalytics - I don't think it is the problem it is made out to be, and aftermarket cats for most applications are not expensive even if it is true.

Rgds, D.

This is no longer a worry. Since CI-4, diesel oils have been designed to be compatible with catalytic converters. CJ-4 is designed to be compatible with DPF.

ac

 

[3930dave]

I used to be one of those fans. I had run 5W40 Rotella T6 in all of my motorcycles...until this stupid CJ-4 certification. Now the oil SUCKS. It can't keep the transmission shifting nice on my bike past 3k miles. The oil change interval is 6k, but I can't make it there with the latest Rotella. It definitely has something to do with the break down of the oil, because with a fresh change the shifting is noticeably smooth and consistent. Around the 3k mark the shifting is horribly notchy and takes serious effort.

I want my old oil back! I don't have DPFs on any of my diesels, why can't I have the GOOD oil still?

ac

Hear ya on the shifting... though even at 1/2 duration, T6 is probably no more money than spec Bike oil.

The Rotella T5 0W40 (Canadian product) is CG-4. Don't personally know anybody that's run it in a bike though. T6 is now JASO MA spec'd, but as you noted, performs differently than in days of old.

Amsoil has some pre-emissions oils still, ex. HDD

AMSOIL Series 3000 SAE 5W-30 Synthetic Heavy Duty Diesel Oil

Rgds, D.

 

[DeereMann]

What a mess EPA has turned a formerly simple subject into!

I am not as concerned about the lower viscosities recommended by engine makers, as they know how well their internal components are fit & finished. In general, these are better than decades older engines due to the use of CNC & robot machines that are more accurate & consistent than hand-labor of yore.

So, with regard to the viscosity discussion, generally go with what your engine maker recommends, even if you are concerned about the lighter visosities. They are looking for (minor) friction reduction = lower fuel consumption and better cooling via higher oil flow rate. To me the higher oil flow rate is the bigger benefit - it cools much better than the slower, thicker oils of yesteryear.

The real problem is in the additive package change over. The oil companies insist the CI & CJ grades are perfectly compatible with older engines despite lower zinc additive levels. But they don't show data to back it up. The link provided early in the thread is the only connection that provides any confidence.

With regard to motorcycle clutch lubrication, that is a completely different topic. I would not expect diesel modern diesel oil formulations to be capable of optimized wet cycle clutch lubrication - use a dedicated motor oil now. Machinery has gotten to complex for a one-size-fits-all engine oil now.

 

[Code54]

OK, I have to ask (not trying to start a fight, I really just dont get this) - why don't people just follow what the manufacture says to use in the machine in question? This is a real common discussion on ATV/UTV sites and sort of makes me laugh. The guy that built this is smarter than me - I didn't built it or design it - I have no idea of they exact metallurgy of the parts in the engine, nor the testing that was done to know what is best. In the case of my UTV - I spent basically 15K on it - lets say I change oil twice a year and use the recommend oil and filter (factory) - it costs me a total of $60 for the two changes. Now I can buy the lowest cost stuff I can possibly find and do them both for $20. Is it really work risking my 15k vehicle for $40 a year? If I can afford to buy my diesel truck why not use a good oil and filter - I only run the recommended oil and filters - if I spend a few bucks up front I never have anyone guessing if something i did caused the problems and have the whole fight over warranty work and such. Again if Cummins built it, they sure know better than me what should keep it running....

 

[msparks]

In my mind, the manufacture wants make the piece of equipment with a certain service life. Is it possible to extend that service life with better products and better maintenance? Next, most manufactures do not formulate/blend lubricants they spec something out and then seek the lowest bidder in most cases that will meet their spec. Then that manufacture puts their label on it and profit from this.

Would it be possible to find a suitable lubricant for less cost since you could go right to the lubricant manufacture and "cut out the middle man"? Or could it be possible to find an even better lubricant than that is spec that will outperform what the manufacture calls for?

It wasn't that long ago that no manufactures recommended synthetics, but synthetics have been around for around 40 years for engine applications.

Anyhow that's my 2 cents.

 

[TomSeller]

OK, I have to ask (not trying to start a fight, I really just dont get this) - why don't people just follow what the manufacture says to use in the machine in question? ....

I try to, certainly on my critical equipment. However, I have at least 35 gas or diesel engines that I own (I stopped counting at 35 anyway) and it helps to standardize on oil type and grade. I try to keep it at no more than 4 types of oil (2 for gas, 2 diesel).

 

[daugen]

I try to, certainly on my critical equipment. However, I have at least 35 gas or diesel engines that I own (I stopped counting at 35 anyway) and it helps to standardize on oil type and grade. I try to keep it at no more than 4 types of oil (2 for gas, 2 diesel).

Tom, I probably have half of what you do, but my retirement collection of things with motors on them is steadily increasing.
10/30, 5/20, 15/40, straight 30 are my needs and sometimes it's hard to remember what goes where. The straight 30 is easy, I think ancient and it's the Gravely. I had straight 40 in the DD's in my boat, now happily sold, and boy that was like pouring honey.
one really has to think when buying, is this for gas or diesel, and look at all the codes.

I solved my memory issues by using a Dymo labeler on each machine, saying when I changed the oil and what I used last.
And other service info, plugs, filters, etc. Generally if it's synthetic it gets changed once a year, if dino at least that much or based on hours.
or if the oil is getting dark at all on the gassers. My biggest wonder is do I need to change the synthetic oil in a couple of them that get all of ten hours a year, like some tillers. Absolutely clean oil in them. One quart is cheap, but I admit to going more than a year if the unit has had comfortable storage. But the little label reminds me not to go too long.

 

[DeereMann]

Code54,
It is surprising how little some engine manufacterers know about lubrication. I know - I work for one and before that, worked for a major industrial lubrication company. Hence the aftermarket discussions.

Best Regards,

DeereMann

 

[3930dave]

Agreed DeereMann - most industries look a little different, from behind the curtains.

I treat OEM data as significant - Trust but Verify class.

We don't always get the whole story, sitting in the paying seats, looking at the stage. If many guys had sat down with factory validation engineers in 2006 for a "beverage", how many light-diesels pickups would have been sold the next year ?

There can be valuable data gleaned from aftermarket discussions - things the factory won't or can't acknowledge, but there is plenty of misinformation too.

Guys like DMnn can post information here, that could get them a reprimand, or worse, if done in an "official" capacity. To me, that is some of the real value of the Internet, but we do have to sift the wheat from chaff.

Rgds, D.

 

[DeereMann]

Agreed DeereMann - most industries look a little different, from behind the curtains.

I treat OEM data as significant - Trust but Verify class.

We don't always get the whole story, sitting in the paying seats, looking at the stage. If many guys had sat down with factory validation engineers in 2006 for a "beverage", how many light-diesels pickups would have been sold the next year ?

There can be valuable data gleaned from aftermarket discussions - things the factory won't or can't acknowledge, but there is plenty of misinformation too.

Guys like DMnn can post information here, that could get them a reprimand, or worse, if done in an "official" capacity. To me, that is some of the real value of the Internet, but we do have to sift the wheat from chaff.

Rgds, D.

You are a wise TBN blogger, 3930 Dave. Many of us wizened folk need to be careful what we say & how we say it, read between the lines. I can tell you I have been astonished how poorly some lubrication practises are done because no one knows any better nor is allowed to spend time on it.

Anyway, I find most of the commentary here in TBN spot-on. You guys know your stuff.

Enjoying my JD 1026R (40 hrs ~ 2 mos.)!

DeereMann

 

[3930dave]

Complexity isn't helping today.

A while ago I came across a report on failures in high use diesels. Garbage trucks, I think it was Cummins, or some other solid manufacturer.

Responsible service shop, that was seeing early failures in the engines. The shop thought they were intentionally over-changing the oil. When the shop foreman was walked through the OEM flowchart to determine the OCI, it turned out they were leaving the oil in way too long, based on their operational specifics.

IMO, the flowchart wasn't that complicated (compared to the world I used to work in) but the disconnect was that critical information was not presented to the end user in a readily digestible (McData !) format.

That's one of the tough parts - when the game does change technically, some people miss or ignore data when it is presented in a new format.

More frequent maintenance on emissions diesels being a good example.

I have intentionally broken a few rules in my day, but I usually do my best to understand why the rule is there in the first place .

Have fun on the 1026R.

Rgds, D.