did I break anything?

[Bob Rooks]

i am having this sinking feeling that I will have a bent valve? can I tell if I remove the rockers will one of them be lower? of could it be damaged, and not noticeable from the outside.
Quite a learning experience this is...

A valve can be bent ever so slightly to make it ineffective, and wouldn't necessarily be noticeable from the outside. If you are absolutely sure the fuel injector timing, the valve timing, and the valve lash are all correct, then it's time to pull the head and inspect the valves.

 

[rsallen]

Whatnot,
Heres the real deal on diesel engines.
If you have compression and you have fuel and you have the timing between the two.........it runs.
Simple as that.

You need to figure out what isn't happening. You neither don't have enough compression. Or you don't have the proper fuel delivery.
First determine compression. While the injectors are out have them tested on the bench.
If those tests are within specs then you have a timing problem at the pump or possible lack of delivery from pump (for one reason or another).

There are more rarer things that do and can happen but first things first.......compression and fuel (bench test those injectors).
Test those two things then you'll have a direction you can follow.

 

[oldpilgrim]

did you by any chance remove/replace either of the timing gears? Or did you remove/install the camshaft when you did other work? If so you may not have the timing gears 'timed' to each other. This would affect the valves opening/closing timing with regard to the piston stokes.

your video actually sounds that way to me.

 

[whynot162]

I believe the timing is correct. When I changed the liners, I removed the connecting rods from the crank through the side access cover. So I never touched the timing between the cam, crank, and IP.
Anyone know if I could disassemble and modify an injector to be a compression testing adapter? That is the only thought I have about compression testing.
Can you hear the exhaust when it is trying to start? Sounds like it is not sealing. but it also might be a odd system thing being it is a 2 cylinder engine. never worked with one before.

So I also had the head done last year, but did not adjust the valve lash after assembling it. IF I bent the exhaust valves back then (I had to pull start it) can I just change the valves and lap them, or do I need to have the head checked for cracks again?

 

[rsallen]

"Anyone know if I could disassemble and modify an injector to be a compression testing adapter? That is the only thought I have about compression testing." end quote

Yes depending on what tools you have available and your own imagination. Do you have an old injector laying about? Though I think it's be easier to start with a blank piece of steel.
Do you have a compression gauge that goes high enough?

 

[SPIKER]

Diesel compression test KITS are available (I THINK) there should be a pretty standard injector hole size.

see this one from HF, (can be had on sale about 60% off this list price.)
Diesel Compression Tester Set - 14 Piece

On the Video, it also sounds to me like either a BENT valve or the Cam/Valve timing is off enough to be opening a valve when compression stroke is hitting. Could you have bent a valve pull starting it ? (Yes maybe if there was a timing issue or a cam issue.)

There are cylinder leak down testers (the compression tester may be able to do this) I have this one from HF. It works and I diagnosed bent valves on my "non-interference engine" when carbon had built up enough and the timing belt let lose. (expensive problem two heads & top end & front of engine is all new now for me 2K bucks )

Mark

 

[whynot162]

Thanks, I was looking at that kit. I called a friend, and he came and did some tests, We removed the rockers, with the air compressor supplying air to the intake, we pushed on the valves, it appears that both of the exhaust valves are not sealing. at first thought the cam bad broken or a gear had slipped. but by removing the rockers that removed the timing component.
So now I have to pull the head, and the exhaust valves, and see what is going on there.
Another head gasket.. and probably some valves. But does it seem like this is reasonable?
thanks
Doug

 

[chvfrk98]

I agree with that considering what I heard in the video. Hopefully the seats can be cleaned with new valves and some lapping compound but I wouldn't get my hopes up yet. It might not be perfect but I would hope it would run. Best of luck man.

You are one determined and patient man. I may have called in reinforcements by now.

 

[rsallen]

Both exhaust valves!!!!!!!!!WTF?????
Something is definitively f'd up.

The last time you had the head off did you note any marking on the piston tops?
Wasn't there a valve job done on that head? I was sure you said there was earlier in the thread.
Did the machine shop cut the head? Er that is plane the head? If so how much did they take off?
And was it beyond the max that engine can accept?
Is there multiple thicknesses of gaskets the manufacturer uses for the engine?

Two exhaust valves?
WTF


BTY,
Neat trick with the air compressor.

 

[whynot162]

I did not note any marks on the pistons, I did have the head done when I worked on this last September, and they did cut the head. I do not know how much, but I did not know to adjust the valves after this. And may have done this the first time I pull started it?
Only one gasket available, can the seats in the head be replaced? that would take a machine shop to do that work again. I will have to ask how much a head ready to go on the tractor is, sometimes these part prices surprise me both ways..
He also mentioned removing the spring and using a drill and try to get the valve to seat, without removing the head again. He said he has seen that work?? have I got anything to loose trying that?

 

[oldpilgrim]

removing the spring and spinning the valve will not do much if anything. That would be a version of 'lapping' the valves, but that would be done on a bench with the head off and valve grinding compound abrasive on the valve/head surface. That helps to grind the valve/head to make a tight seat fit. I can't see that simply spinning the valve would do anything.

 

[rsallen]

If a valve job was done there shouldn't be any need to seat the valves at all.
And IF you have bent valves no amount of attempting at seating them will work. They will need to be replaced. IF they are bend.
Nope pulling the machine wouldn't have hurt them, If they are bent it would have happened the first time you forced it over by hand or spun it up on the starter.
Further, while I don't know how close the tolerances are for this engine my feeling is the valve adjustments would have to be so far out (tight) that it'd be self evident during reassembly that something was wrong.........even if they took as much as .010 off the head.
Would valves .010 too tight interfere? I don't think so but honestly I don't know, what are the tolerances (clearances) for this engine?

The receipt from the machine shop should tell you exactly what was done. ie. how much was taken off the head.
My next step would be a call to a shop that knows this engine. It's possible the head can not be machined (cut) at all.

 

[whynot162]

I do not have the receipt anymore, that was back in September. I will call farm boys and ask them about machining the head.

 

[SPIKER]

most times when machining the heads the machine shop will stamp the amount taken off, if just hitting them on a stone to true them up then maybe not. Bent valves will need replace but that does not mean a valve lapping wont help them if they are NOT bent. The condition of the valve and seat can be tested with some lightweight oil on bench by pouring a bit of oil into intake or exhaust ports and looking for a leak thru into the cylinder. Something I learned my lesson on not long ago is to always check the heads prior to installing them. One of my heads had a damaged seat (corrosion) that I almost missed. I was ready to install a set of ported heads when I reinstalled & lapped the valves then cleaned them all up. a few weeks later (must have gotten water in the seat area) I hit them with some air and saw dust blow out one side. After close inspection some rust had formed under the sealing area and opened the valve some... I had to tear valves back out & re lap them then clean & oiled them to prevent this from happening again.

Mark

 

[whynot162]

wow, I got shafted big time.
Pulled the head, and pulled the valve. Both of the seats have large gouges in them. There is no way that they are going to lap out. Probably not even grind out. the valves I placed in a hand drill, and spun them, and they look like they are not bent. So I am going to take it in tomorrow and have a different shop look at it. and see where I have to go from there. New valves are only $11. so If he can not grind everything, I will just have it all replaced depending on cost.
I trusted the machine shop. And there is no way they pulled and checked the valves and seats....

 

[Bob Rooks]

I think the seats may be replaceable. If not, a good machine shop can install replaceable stellite seats with no problems and give you a good three angle grind.

 

[SPIKER]

wow, I got shafted big time.
Pulled the head, and pulled the valve. Both of the seats have large gouges in them. There is no way that they are going to lap out. Probably not even grind out. the valves I placed in a hand drill, and spun them, and they look like they are not bent. So I am going to take it in tomorrow and have a different shop look at it. and see where I have to go from there. New valves are only $11. so If he can not grind everything, I will just have it all replaced depending on cost.
I trusted the machine shop. And there is no way they pulled and checked the valves and seats....

I would be back there telling them about it. Most places will honer a 1 year on the stuff they do. Heck some of the shops I've dealt with gave me lifetime on heads...

Mark

 

[whynot162]

if they did this quality of work, do I want them to touch it again?? and I do not have the receipt.
The seats are replaceable, I will take it in somewhere else and maybe they can just grind them? or install new ones.

 

[rsallen]

Sounds pretty ugly. I wouldn't go back to them.
Though after getting the head done right I'd probably make a trip to their counter and throw those valves down in front of the manager and tell him what a fine job they do.

For twenty two bucks I'd just order some new valves along with your new head gasket (saves on shipping cost).

 

[whynot162]

got to have new seats, the current shop thinks they can get them with no issue. I will order the new head gasket tomorrow. I think this is #4 over this starting issue. Maybe I can get a 10 pack to go?