Determining how badly my barn has settled/heaved

[nyone]

Laser levels seem reasonably priced but the altimeters are quite spendy.

Unless your getting a 360* laser with a reciever there nearly useless for exterior work.

Since it's a barn I suggest you just start with a string line and string line level. Easy to set up and about $12 in tools.

 

[NoTrespassing]

I wonder how they kept level when building the pyramids

Aliens

 

[jaxs]

If you don't want to invest in a laser level, make one with a garden hose and a couple lengths of clear tubing, a water level. Cheap and doesn't need batteries
View attachment 799552

I've used water levels like this with good results but invested less than $50 in a Zircon WL125 and it has been worth every penny.

 

[jaxs]

You have to let it set for a day or so to make sure the air is completely gone. The air will stick to the side of the hose in small bubbles initially until it dissipates.
My dad used to say the oldtimers would leave the water in it for years and would get extremely upset if someone dumped the water out.

The $50 Zircon WL125 isn't effected by a few bubbles and spilling some water doesn't change settings or accuracy.

 

[newbury]

I've used water levels like MossRoad mentioned since about 1964. Usually aquarium tubing, 3/8" ID, a jug (at first a glass jug, then about the early 1980's I upgraded to a used plastic milk jug) and a dark food coloring dye.
Doesn't work below freezing temps.
For long runs might need a larger ID.
Works around corners and going under door frames.

 

[MossRoad]

I've used water levels like MossRoad mentioned since about 1964. Usually aquarium tubing, 3/8" ID, a jug (at first a glass jug, then about the early 1980's I upgraded to a used plastic milk jug) and a dark food coloring dye.
Doesn't work below freezing temps.
For long runs might need a larger ID.
Works around corners and going under door frames.

My father showed me this stuff when I was a kid. Thanks Dad!

I bury a 8' stick in the ground a couple feet and marked where I wanted the top of the floor to be and call that my reference board. That doesn't move throughout construction, or you're screwed. For a building addition, I just use the side of the building.

Fill the tube with colored water and leave a couple feet of empty tube on each end.

Tape one end of the tube to the buried board about 4-5' off the ground.

Tape the other end of the tube to a 5' stick. (5' is no special number, it's just easy to carry around a 5' stick)

Hold the 5' stick next to the buried stick so that the bottom of the 5' stick is level with the floor mark you want on the buried board.

Let the water settle in both ends of the tube until the levels are, well, level.

Mark the level of the water on both boards next to the tubing on both ends with a sharpie. Now they are always level.

Now you can walk around with the 5' stick and move it up or down until the water in it is level with the mark on the stick. You can pound a stake in the ground and set the 5' board end on the top of the stake, then keep tapping it in to achieve perfection.

If you want a 1" or 2" slope to the floor for drainage, you can put 1" or 2" (or any measurement) on the side of the stick near the level mark and use it like a ruler.

Works great. As mentioned, around corners, too.

Only problems:

If you drop the end of the tube too low, or lean it against something and it falls over and loses water, you'll have to refill the tube and recalibrate it per above.

Same thing can happen with temperature changes because with tubing can stretch/shrink/expand/contract, so check it in the morning and several times a day. Super easy to do. You can use a small spray bottle to fine tune it if you have to, or just overfill it and blow into the tube to remove access water.

If you're careful, and fill it with the siphon method, it should eliminate any air bubbles naturally. Just check the tubing for air bubbles before you use it.

Give it a try sometime. It's kinda fun.

 

[MossRoad]

I suppose we could use anti-freeze and it would work in winter, but the vinyl tubing might get stiff. I don't like to do construction in winter! But I may have to some days.

 

[NoTrespassing]

I suppose we could use anti-freeze and it would work in winter, but the vinyl tubing might get stiff. I don't like to do construction in winter! But I may have to some days.

I use a water level when setting up above ground pools. Neighbors were pretty impressed how even the water was around the top of the pool.

 

[MossRoad]

I use a water level when setting up above ground pools. Neighbors were pretty impressed how even the water was around the top of the pool.

Yep. That would work great. Especially if your liner has a geometrical pattern print, like a tile-look. Then it's really important to get it to look level. If it's solid or pebble print you can cheat, as no one can tell unless the measure from the edge down to water surface.

Hey, it must be the deep end!

 

[Skyfair]

Thanks for all the great comments thus far. Keep them coming. Some of you asked for pictures. Note how doors no longer meet evenly. Barn sits on foundation wall on 3 sides; front and middle of barn supported by 8x8s sitting in/on

dirt floor. Note also separation of post/beam at top of 2nd level. Once I determine whether to raise sides or lower center of structure, I'll cut bottoms of posts and set footings into a poured concrete floor. Barn is only 20 years old. As we purchased property 2 years ago, not sure of how foundation was poured, what's under them, etc.

 

[NoTrespassing]

Thanks for all the great comments thus far. Keep them coming. Some of you asked for pictures. Note how doors no longer meet evenly. Barn sits on foundation wall on 3 sides; front and middle of barn supported by 8x8s sitting in/onView attachment 799683 dirt floor. Note also separation of post/beam at top of 2nd level. Once I determine whether to raise sides or lower center of structure, I'll cut bottoms of posts and set footings into a poured concrete floor. Barn is only 20 years old. As we purchased property 2 years ago, not sure of how foundation was poured, what's under them, etc. View attachment 799681View attachment 799682

WOW! I wonder if this building was put up by a professional or Joe homeowner. It looks like you have your work cut out for you. I don't really know where to start.

 

[dodge man]

Just me eyeballing it I’d say looking at the front the right corner and left corner have settled. I’m not sure a string line and one of those little level bubbles that hang on it aren’t good enough. They actually make string designed for this, you need to get it really tight.

I’d set something like a stake at each corner a few inches above the floor, you can use a rebar driven in the ground also. Do the same thing at the other corner. Wrap the string around one stake and leave it alone. Then move the string up and down at the other corner until it’s level. The level bubble I’m thinking of just hangs on the string. You want the string close to the front wall of the building but not touching it. Then you can measure down to the various points along the building. There is a little technique to learning how to get the string tight but where you can move it up and down a little but you’ll figure it out.

 

[2manyrocks]

Pictures of the sides and back? Is the front the worst?

 

[Jims1025R]

"Been there, done that. The floor heaved because you're in a part of the world where it freezes, and snows. I know it doesn't freeze deep where you are, but any is enough to heave - here's why... The buried 6x6's aren't being pushed up from being frozen under, the frozen ground is gripping around them right at the surface. The ground freezes hard there, as the roof keeps the snow off. The snow outside insulates, and the ground under the snow might hardly be frozen at all. But the ground inside gets no snow, but is still cold, so freezes hard. As if freezes, it grips around the 6x6, and lifts is as the ground expands. Over the winter, while the post is being held up by the good grip of the frozen ground, the space under the base of the 6x6 at the bottom of the hole fills in - because the ground is not frozen down there. Once filled in an inch or two, and spring thaw, the post cannot settle back, so new height (heaved). That repeats year after year. I built an airplane hangar, and used the backhoe to bury the posts 6 feet deep - they still heaved! Then, I figured it out, and fixed it forever....

One inch below ground level, put at least 2" thick styrofoam insulation at least 3 feet diameter around the post. Then the ground cannot freeze around the post, and the one inch which can is not enough to grip the post. With the insulation, the ground will not heave and the no longer gripped post cannot lift.

If the winters have lots of snow, but are not well below freezing, the ground might not ever heave under the snow, which is why some posts survive the winter. That said, lots of big fence posts heave. I see big rocks placed on top of the post, that won't help - the frost grips and lifts, and the hole fills in over the winter.

I now insulate around/beside everything bury, or otherwise want to remain at the same height. Since doing it, I have not had anything heave at all.

It won't fix your existing problem. But, once you figure what you're going to do to level the barn, insulating will prevent frustration several years in the future! For my hangar, once I insulated around every post, I then jacked the beams off the tops of the higher posts, and trimmed off the top of the post, so the roof would settle back to the correct height. A fair amount of work, but it did work. Good luck....

 

[nyone]

I dont think the roof dumping all the water at your corners is helping much.

 

[nyone]

I now insulate around/beside everything bury, or otherwise want to remain at the same height. Since doing it, I have not had anything heave at all

Insulation dosnt help if theres no added heat. What's probably happening is your removing the frosts grip on the post. A smooth post would also do this. But none of that is needed if you go down below the frost line. That's why a typical foundation is below frost.

 

[Jims1025R]

Insulation dosnt help if theres no added heat.

The ground has its own small amount of heat, which is why my ground source heat pump works so well. The buried insulation prevents the cold from going down into the ground, which will slightly keep itself less cold already. Normally, the snow would insulate the ground, but inside the building, no snow to insulate.

In my pole barn hangar, I had a side bay to park the tractor. The airplane sat on a concrete pad in the middle, poured over two feet of crushed limestone, drained away at the bottom - it hasn't moved at all since 2001. The side bay for the tractor was just the original dirt floor. Of course, being an uninsulated pole barn, the floor would have no snow, and be subjected to the ambient winter low temperature.

In the depths of winter, the dirt floor under the tractor heaved about 6 inches up compared to the concrete pad, which remained constant. The dirt floor was freezing hard and deep, and the soil would expand upward. I dug it out, put 2" styrofoam insulation down, and filled 4" of soil back over it. The whole tractor bay dirt floor did not heave after that - still with cold ambient air above, and unfrozen soil below.

A thin top layer of frozen ground will slide on a smooth pole. But if the first foot deep of earth freezes around the pole, the pole is going to go up as the lower frozen soil expands upward. Prior to my understanding this, I had a near total problem with heaving posts, once I started insulating around them, it became a near zero problem.

 

[Skyfair]

The idea that the dirt floor inside the barn is heaving more than the ground outside makes sense. In late winter, I can see cracks in the dirt floor and evidence of expansion. Since the 4 - 6x6 posts are in the front and middle of the barn, it might explain the physical deformation of the barn structure you see in the picture. As Jims1025R stated, I will need to take elevations to further refine that theory. I plan to do that at ground level and in the loft.

Once leveled (I'm sure I will come back for more good advice on that project), I plan to cut out the bottom of each post and pour footings underneath, as well as a concrete floor throughout. Sounds like a laser level might do the trick. Then I can fix up that barn, divert rain water off the roof, and create a place for animals/tractor/equipment.

Additional thoughts welcomed. Thanks everyone for your input so far.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

LASGOO Laser Level Self Leveling, Green Cross Laser Line with Vertical and Horizontal for Picture Hanging and Construction, Magnetic Rotating Stand and Portable Case Included, Green https://a.co/d/9EhOTUt

$40 beats trying to use a water level.

I would expect the sides have dropped instead of the middle heaving.

 

[aircommuter]

These are the drawbacks to this type of system and failure to do proper soil preparation for the area. The repairs are listed above, your choice and likely good practice.