demo'd a CAT 297c today

[Landwise]

I had the oportunity to run a CAT 297c today with a Fecon on it. Can't say that I love the fecon, but the CAT machine was pretty nice. Pressurized cab, 33gpm @ 4100 psi (That's about 12 more Hydraulic HP than an ASV RC100). Tommorow I will be switching the motor on my Loftness to a # 7 motor and I will give a little more info on the performance.

I know CAT had a few problems with the 287b, but do any of you know anything about the 297?

 

[Terra Firma Scott]

Drooling....I ran the new "C" series 297 once but with no attachments...In the lot at the dealer..Yes very nice machine..Been waiting for feedback on it with a mulching head though...My goal-297c with the loftness head -I love mine...

Glad to hear someone has run one with a head on it..What didnt you like about the fecon? Did it feel like it was beating you to death?...I ran a fecon on a rc100 and the head felt like it was pulverising/beating the trees down and up...different animal i guess...

 

[QwikDraw]

Interested to hear the review...how does the cooling system look? The positive pressure cab sounds real nice...

FYI I have my pump turned up to 4100psi on the ASV..big difference. I know Dirty has his up higher than that.

I like my Fecon...I was in 6"-8" swamp maples all day yesterday...gettng rained out today...since I am in a swamp..

 

[DirtyWorks]

First off , Ted glad you got her turned up! Go ahead and crank it on up to 4900! Hope you have a chance to try the new fecon "knives". I know that the knives that I have on my magnum are 200% more efficient. I go back to the hammers only when I know there is a lot of trash or for junk mowing. There is really so much difference that I would pay 2 times as much for them if I had to.(but I am happy that they are really only half as much )

Looks like the jobs that I get alot.The trees on your immediate left, as you are seated, are my normal size to mulch and clear. Only lots more and closer together. Thanks for the pics. I will post my new website in a few days as soon as my videos get posted.

Land, I do know of one Co around here that has a new 297c. He has already had three fires in under 150 hrs . and yes he has the "forestry" pkg from cat . It appears to be a lot of "broom" type gaskets around the engine compartment. Hopefully smeone with the specs can chime in on this kit. Granted the firesIMHO for the money in a mulching environment I personally like the 272c XPS with the VTS system. both tracks can be bought for less than one 297 track! less money up front, same performance, better ground clearance, half the operating cost of a mtl, less worry about the undercarrage. We have thought many more times than once about trading up but can't afford to lose 30K in less than one year. although we have had over 45 days of down time with the asv equalling well over 50K loss of profit.

What is a #7 motor? I'm not as up to date on loftness. And would like to buy a used timberaxe if anyone has one for a steal. looking for something the T-300 may be able to handle

 

[Digdeep]

I had the oportunity to run a CAT 297c today with a Fecon on it. Can't say that I love the fecon, but the CAT machine was pretty nice. Pressurized cab, 33gpm @ 4100 psi (That's about 12 more Hydraulic HP than an ASV RC100). I know CAT had a few problems with the 287b, but do any of you know anything about the 297?

I was speaking to my dealer right after ASV had their dealer meeting in October, and ASV measured the actual hydraulic hp at the attachments for a comparison. From what I was told, the CAT 297 does not put out anywhere close to 78 hyd hp (33gpmx4100/1714=78). I don't recall the exact actual hp but it was close to 55. The limiting factor is the 3.3L engine that only puts out 217 ft lbs of torque compared to 304 ft lbs for the RC100. If I recall correctly the RC100 was putting out around 65 actual hyd hp at the attachment. I do know the ASV dealers have access to this information from the training.

 

[Landwise]

Dig Deep- OK, First--CAT Owns 25% of ASV, and that is a down fall of the CAT. I am no hydraulic engineer, but I thought the formula for calculating hyd HP was what we have listed here........ I don't know, and am not trying to be smart.

My salesman from CAT knew nothing about this machine, and that worries me. Yes on the outside, and judging it as I would most good looking women upon initial contact, WWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW, this machine is HOT.

It is quiet, smooth and appears to be well thought out for moving dirt or rock. The "forestry" package is a joke, as it is a few velcro(ed) on screens and as described earlier a few finger gaurds. No winch available and $72,000.

Terra- Actually, it was one of the smoothest heads I have ever run.

Quick- Cooling looks adequate, more so than the ASV, and easy to access and clean. (PS are you a member of fordtrucks?) Also, I need to learn how to turn up the ASV. I want to go to 4000 or so, but I have to change my motors to do that.

Dirty- I love my planar carbides, and would not like to go back to dull teeth except for the same reasons you mentioned.

Gonna run it some more and I will get back to you all.

 

[Digdeep]

Landwise..I know you are not trying to yank my chain. You are correct that the formula that I posted is right for hyd hp but it is only theoretical and does not take into account such factors as gear pumps vs. piston pumps (piston pumps are more efficient), direct drive pumps vs. belt driven (having sold Bobcats for some time I would say that direct drive is better), the power needed to drive the hydraulic pump when there is a load on it. from what I understand from my dealer this is one of the primary factors that prevents the 297 from putting out the theoretical hp the formula spits out (217 ft lbs compared to 304 ft lbs is a big difference in torque when it comes to powering a hyd pump under load). I understand that the other factor has something to do with the hydraulic pressure of the pump on the 297 dropping to 3300psi when the loader arms are moved. i was told that the hyd system was originally designed for a cold planer on their skids and the loader arms don't move running a cold planer. I would ask your CAT dealer or your ASV dealer to clear this up. I don't brush cut with my RC50 but I am interested in all aspects of compact machinery since I operate it now and sold it for over 8 years. Good luck.

 

[DirtyWorks]

and the loader arms don't move running a cold planer.

They don't move on the ASV when mulching either. Or I should say they don't move fast. The Cat and the Bobcat loader arms move way more "freely" when their highflow is on than my 100 does. This is noticeable but is only a hassel when doing alot of fence cleaning. Other than that I hardly pick the head up above 1 foot anymore.Most of the large dedicated machines only move a very short distance.
It is more of a time constraint on the ammbusher, which constantly gets picked up to the max and down into ditches. The T-300 runs it (rotary cutter)smother than the 100 so that is what it does- precut.
The 297/272 exp are the best compromise for the flow. And the CAT is WAYYY COOOOOLER! - better cooling, better comfort, better visibility, positive pressure sealed cab, quieter, better rear end protection(no need to be wrapped in an iron, heat shield blanket), Much better tow/tie down hooks-You will need these!, stronger loader arms and higher breakout without twisting the frame, I could go onand on but you get my point. You do get what you pay for in the the mulching/forestry world.

 

[Builder]

I know they're great machines, but what's it like sittin in those little cabs all day? I tried snow removal in a cab skid steer for a couple days and it was too clostrophobic for me. I just can't do it.

 

[jmfox]

I know they're great machines, but what's it like sittin in those little cabs all day? I tried snow removal in a cab skid steer for a couple days and it was too clostrophobic for me. I just can't do it.

You've mentioned this before and I thought about it when I demoed different machines. The small cab is a characteristic of compact machinery, but I only felt closed in when the cab door was in my face. You can take the door off on most machines, but I found that the doors that slide up easily on the go didn't leave me with that closed in feeling. My ASV SR80 does have such a sliding door, however the RC100's do not. After running the Bobcat T300 for a day I wanted out. The machine would not run unless the door was closed and latched. The fact that you can remove the door was not helpful because there are times when the door is needed for protection and switching back and forth was too inconvenient.

jmf

 

[Builder]

You've mentioned this before and I thought about it when I demoed different machines. The small cab is a characteristic of compact machinery, but I only felt closed in when the cab door was in my face. You can take the door off on most machines, but I found that the doors that slide up easily on the go didn't leave me with that closed in feeling. My ASV SR80 does have such a sliding door, however the RC100's do not. After running the Bobcat T300 for a day I wanted out. The machine would not run unless the door was closed and latched. The fact that you can remove the door was not helpful because there are times when the door is needed for protection and switching back and forth was too inconvenient.

jmf

That's what I mean. You can't always close the cab door if the weather is bad. Can't imagine what it would be like for a 6-2 300+ lb guy. I'm only 210lbs and I thought i was gonna have a stroke from sittin in that tiny cab all day.

 

[jmfox]

That's what I mean. You can't always close the cab door if the weather is bad. Can't imagine what it would be like for a 6-2 300+ lb guy. I'm only 210lbs and I thought i was gonna have a stroke from sittin in that tiny cab all day.

Even in the winter I slide up the front glass, and when it makes sense to have it down to avoid dust or cold I appreciate being closed in.

jmf

 

[Landwise]

I'm 6'4 and don't have any problems. The cab on the 297 seems huge compared to the ASV.

Let me add some clarification- I am testing the 297 against the Tak Supertracks TL150, not the ASV. I have had my belly full of ASV, and it scares me that 25% of ASV is owned by CAT.

The CAT seems to be far superior to the ASV in terms of fit and finish.
The cab is much better suited for what I do, the cooling is much better...

I have been cautioned against the vertical lift system on a CAT for MY purposes. I don't load trucks all that often, and the vertical lift machines are not as tough with side to side forces produced in our industry.

I think the CAT will have better resale than the Super 150. Put a dirt bucket on it, and it is a dirt mover. Put a dirt bucket on a SK150 and you have a machine that was designed for mulching. That does not sit well with the resale market. I am facing that problem now, trying to unload my ASV's.

I have made a pretty extensive list of pros and cons for both machines, and they come out about even. I am really fishing for more info........

The 297 is new, and there have been problems with earlier versions. The SK 150 is made for mulching, which was a negative as far as resale, but a plus for day to day operations.

 

[jmfox]

I have had my belly full of ASV, and it scares me that 25% of ASV is owned by CAT.

Is it ASV or the RC100's that is the problem?

jmf

 

[Landwise]

Both-
RC100 for not being well thought out or designed
ASV for lack of support

Don't get me wrong. I think that the ASV is the strongest off the shelf machine you can buy in this size. It just is not engineered to withstand the kind of abuse that we put it through. Electrical problems, hydraulic failures, lack of dealer warranty support, lack of customer warranty support, cooling issues.....

Maybe I just expected too much for the money. Maybe I was mislead by the dealer. It is $20,000 less than the CAT and $25,000 less than the SK150. You get what you pay for??

I did not mean to turn this into an ASV bashing, more a "Where do I go from here" post. I am tired of the continuous downtime that I have had from my ASV. Beleive me, if they would hold together a little better and not leave me a roughly calculated $60,000 dollar shortfall this year, plus the loss of value, I would be singing their praises.

Example- I bought an '06 and an '07 within 30 days of each other. Within 6 months, my '06 had been in the shop almost as much as it was in the feild. I actually got ASV to swap me for a new machine......... Within 3 hours, the alternator had fallen off. Within 2 weeks, the AC Mounting bolt had broked three times. Two sensors that tell the compressor to come on had failed with the first month, and I have had to have a new starter put on at 185 hours. And that was all on the new machine. Beleive me, this is the tip of the iceberg.

 

[QwikDraw]

LW- did you ever look in to the Gehl or Mustang? 100hp. Not sure about the cooling etc. I do know the Takeuchi's are bullet proof and the day they come out with a high flow I will buy one. I talked with the Mustang rep when I bought my excavator and he said the MTL25 could run a mulch head no problem...but he is a salesman. They come with pressurized cab too. The downfall is the oil cooler and radiator are stacked, maybe a loftness remote oil cooler on the roof and you have a solid machine??

Specs out at 39.6 GPM @ 2988psi...going to have to turn that pressure up...

NO on the fordtrucks...although I do own one.

Also talked to this guy.....
addingtonequipment
He is putting a 85 HP motor in a Kubota 161 frame with his head and dedicated line to the mower. I talked with him about buying one but he only has one and since it really isn't tested and he was already talking about changes I can't see buying it. It looks solid but at 1000 lbs maybe a little heavy for a 12k class excavator...

For the job I am on now I think this head would be very good but this one is @ $12,000....I am looking in to fabricating one simular.
Little
I actually was working for a hunt club this week and one of the members has a hydraulic company and is getting me all the info on a motor and bearing block...the rest shoud be fairly easy to weld up....or so I think.

Random picture from last month....these field were full of old brush piles..

 

[cbturf]

Landwise I sent you a PM about my machine that I will be selling. Anyone else who might be interested let me know. I know that this is not a sales board but if you guys do some homework you will know what I am selling. I can tell you now that it will do more work than two ASVs combined without the breakdowns.

 

[QwikDraw]

CB
why are you selling?...getting out of the bus or changing machines???

 

[cbturf]

I attached a little hint on the last post...hope you fellas can figure it out OK. I also know a finance company that is pretty sweet on the mulching business. They are back in Nashville TN (home for me). I am working in New Mexico right now and need a machine with loader arms to reach above the branches on the junipers. The branches are low to the ground and extend out about 8 feet from the trunk. The 140 will mow them like grass but the branches stay against the door glass and I can not see what I am cutting.

 

[QwikDraw]

So...FTX148?