Maynard Reece Byrd
Member
Anyone have any experience with the SCR systems requiring DEF Fluid?
DEF Fluid?
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bandit67
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Maynard Reece Byrd
Member
I am looking at new tractors and some use the SCR sytem which uses DEF fluid. I am trying to decide which of the two emission control systems I would prefer based on the experience of users.
General Lee
Veteran Member
I have the DEF system on my truck. I didn't know new tractors had them as well.
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Maynard Reece Byrd
Member
Case is using it and they claim it is the best. What has been your experience with your truck, good, bad, indifferent?
General Lee
Veteran Member
No issues so far. I have Ford's new 6.7L Powerstroke. Truck has a 5 gallon DEF reservoir. DEF usage pertains to use such has how hard you work the motor under load, etc. Ford states 5 gallons of DEF lasts typically 7-10,000 miles. Keep in mind DEF freezes at about 12 degrees F, so depending on how the tractor will be stored, the freezing DEF may cause issues. Not sure if Case insulates the DEF reservoir to help with freeze issues or not. The DEF system with at least Ford is said to improve fuel mileage as well with cleaner emissions. I have no idea how it would benefit the tractor.
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Maynard Reece Byrd
Member
Case is claiming improved fuel economy. Supposed to be able to start the tractor with the DEF frozen and there is coolant that warms the fluid up. Also have a drain down that drains the lines when you shut the tractor off. As I understand.
General Lee
Veteran Member
Case is probably spot on. When I shut my truck down, it is equipped with a pump that siphons the DEF fluid out of the lines to prevent freezing. I doubt you will have any issues. Now that tractors are adding DEF systems, it sounds all large machinery equipped with diesels will have a DEF system before to long. Gotta thank the lovely EPA. Also DEF is becoming widely available at automotive stores and even at the pumps at truck stops. Its not to expensive. 2-3 dollars a gallon.
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Maynard Reece Byrd
Member
Some, including John Deere, are using EGR(exhaust gas recirculation) to meet the Tier 4 requirements.
bandit67
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I have the new 6.7L Powerstroke. So far no complaints with the DEF system. I expect to go 7-8k miles before having to refill, so it's not that often, and is easy to find. Don't really have a choice on the new pickups.
It is another bunch of "stuff" added to the tractor, so I might take that into consideration when looking at a new machine if not all manufacturers were doing it, since most of us keep our tractors long past the warranty period. Although I don't have complaints about the system on my truck as of yet, I'm not sure I'd be too excited about having to deal with it on my tractor, until there was no other choice in the matter.
Smaller diesels can still get by without the DEF system. The DEF system is all about getting more power with better fuel economy & cleaner emissions than comparable non-DEF engines, and becomes more beneficial as the engine size and power levels increase.
It appears as if it is the wave of the future, at least at this point, and EGR systems do have the occasional issue with sensors. As to which version is better? I guess maybe the one with the least amount of components that could break.
By the way, the Ford DEF tank is 8 gallons as I understand it, not 5.
It is another bunch of "stuff" added to the tractor, so I might take that into consideration when looking at a new machine if not all manufacturers were doing it, since most of us keep our tractors long past the warranty period. Although I don't have complaints about the system on my truck as of yet, I'm not sure I'd be too excited about having to deal with it on my tractor, until there was no other choice in the matter.
Smaller diesels can still get by without the DEF system. The DEF system is all about getting more power with better fuel economy & cleaner emissions than comparable non-DEF engines, and becomes more beneficial as the engine size and power levels increase.
It appears as if it is the wave of the future, at least at this point, and EGR systems do have the occasional issue with sensors. As to which version is better? I guess maybe the one with the least amount of components that could break.
By the way, the Ford DEF tank is 8 gallons as I understand it, not 5.
General Lee
Veteran Member
The Pickups have a 5.1 gallon tank, the cab chassis trucks have a 6.2 gallon tank.
art
Super Member
For tier three many manufacturers retarded the timing in order to pass. With the fluid they are able to advance the timing and improve the fuel economy as well as performance again!
This isn't the case with the other system!
This isn't the case with the other system!
Dmace
Elite Member
Sure you do, buy a Cummins-powered RAM. :thumbsup:
Sorry, had to.
We've had a few small problems with DEF in fleet trucks from frozen tanks to bad sensors and leaking lines that all led to the truck found on the side of the road in "limp" mode. I certainly wouldn't want it in my tractor.
bandit67
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You have to wonder how much longer they'll be able to offer their NAC system in the 2500 & 3500. The 5500 already has the DEF system.
By the way, how has that Sims cab been holding up the last few years? I've been considering adding a cab to mine. Getting mixed "reviews" on the aftermarket cabs.
Paystar
Elite Member
Let me say up front I am a fan of International trucks, and they are the only one going mass egr, but I would not buy anything new without SCR/DEF. I don't want recycled dirty exhaust going back into my engines. SCR has been showing more fuel economy benefits than egr.
But in an engine as small as in a tractor I don't think you would have to worry about all the downfalls of egr such as heat rejection and soot buildup and egr cooler failures. I am also impressed with Massey Ferguson as an example, in that they didn't put a price increase on their new scr equipped Sisu engines, whereas in the class 8 trucks I deal with, we have seen an almost 10 grand increase.
We've been using DEF all winter here with no freeze ups. Yes the heater elements can fail, but so can many of the sensors in an egr unit......so who is better?? At least with def we have almost eliminated stationary regens.
One brand (Terra) is supposed to have a def coming out that will not slush in the cold.
Also I have talked to many def manufacturers at the trucking trade shows I attend and they all admitted they are not any better than the next guy. They all said they make the same product, to a spec, and the only way they can compete is with packaging and pricing. So you can fell safe buying any of the brands. Was kinda odd to hear them not shoot their competitors down.
But in an engine as small as in a tractor I don't think you would have to worry about all the downfalls of egr such as heat rejection and soot buildup and egr cooler failures. I am also impressed with Massey Ferguson as an example, in that they didn't put a price increase on their new scr equipped Sisu engines, whereas in the class 8 trucks I deal with, we have seen an almost 10 grand increase.
We've been using DEF all winter here with no freeze ups. Yes the heater elements can fail, but so can many of the sensors in an egr unit......so who is better?? At least with def we have almost eliminated stationary regens.
One brand (Terra) is supposed to have a def coming out that will not slush in the cold.
Also I have talked to many def manufacturers at the trucking trade shows I attend and they all admitted they are not any better than the next guy. They all said they make the same product, to a spec, and the only way they can compete is with packaging and pricing. So you can fell safe buying any of the brands. Was kinda odd to hear them not shoot their competitors down.
ModMech
Platinum Member
Two points here, to the best of my knowledge, EVERY DEF system ALSO has EGR. DEF does allow to manufacturer to run hotter, thereby reducing soot and (propotedly reduce fuel consumption) still achieve strict emissions limits on soot and NOx.
There are two "big" strategies to deal with NOx, EGR and SCR. Why have both?
When manufacturers claim to offer superior "fuel efficiency" with the SCR systems they conviently forget that you need to refill that SCR tank too. Typical SSCR use is almost 1:1 to the diesel saved, meaning that if you saved a gallon of diesel (and increased diesel efficiency) you also consumed about a gallon of DEF to accomplish that. With DEF being about the same or more per gallon than diesel, it's not a DOLLAR saving technology.
My opinion, diesels are fully electronic and now very complex, we don't need more tanks, sensors, injectors and pumps. It is WAY bad enough already!
schoolsout
Veteran Member
SCR is proven technology so you shouldn't have any worries about it (other than being extra stuff that could potentially fail)
I sell commercial trucks and the SCR vehicles get better fuel mileage than those with just the DPF ('07 EPA stuff)
I sell commercial trucks and the SCR vehicles get better fuel mileage than those with just the DPF ('07 EPA stuff)
schoolsout
Veteran Member
DEF is cheaper than diesel
Find a place that sells it in bulk, not the 2.5 gal jugs, and fill up there
We sell 2.5 gallons for $5-6 in containers
DEF usage is about 2% of diesel usage (Truck mfg claims)
Also, DEF allows the truck to not have to "regenerate" the DPF, meaning you don't use extra diesel to get the exhaust hot. It will still regenerate, but not as much. SCR is an after-treatment technology.
Find a place that sells it in bulk, not the 2.5 gal jugs, and fill up there
We sell 2.5 gallons for $5-6 in containers
DEF usage is about 2% of diesel usage (Truck mfg claims)
Also, DEF allows the truck to not have to "regenerate" the DPF, meaning you don't use extra diesel to get the exhaust hot. It will still regenerate, but not as much. SCR is an after-treatment technology.
schoolsout
Veteran Member
I'll agree on the current Int'l set up. They screwed the pooch on that one.
Disclaimer: We are a Mack/Volvo/Isuzu dealership.
Paystar
Elite Member
You are correct, they still use egr but the important point is at a way lower level. So you have less soot loading, less heat and a motor better tuned for power and fuel mileage. Even if total fluid consumption is the same, I would still go scr just to have less stationary regens required and better performance.
I also agree it is tooo much now. Yes the exhaust is cleaner of particulate matter but with the excessive fuel consumption compared to old.....how are we saving the environment exactly??
