sunandsand
Silver Member
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2020
- Messages
- 247
- Tractor
- Kubota B2601
Complexity in our vehicles isn't going away. Expectations are higher, regulations are more stringent, manufacturers load on the options for more profit.
I've owned over 150 cars since I was 16, some ridiculous, some sublime. The old stuff was simple, as the vehicles got newer and newer (and actually better and better), they got more and more complex. This meant if I was going to fix them myself, I had to upgrade my skill levels and my tool box. That's fine, I like the challenge, love learning, and hate to pay retail prices for crappy work which I will have to redo anyway.
The current "Queen of the fleet" is a Mercedes convertible. (No it is not a pickup truck, but if I were single, it might be a pickup car . . . never mind.) It is mind-boggling complex. It is a triumph of German engineering - never use one part where ten will suffice. I am continually amazed how they got all those trick techno-doo-dads squeezed into one rather small package, but they did, and they all work and it looks good, too. I have lost count of the computer modules in it, the sound system is fiber-optics (!) it has stuff I'm still discovering. The heat and A/C controls alone get several pages of small print in the owner's manual.
Anyway, this is NOT a vehicle that I can expect to fix with duct tape and baling wire (I've had a few that I could ;-) so I bought an aftermarket diagnostics computer. I got a deal on it, someone bought it and paid $450 for it (which was cheap) but it wouldn't fit his car, and he offered it to me for $50 - which I snapped up.
It plugs into the "advanced OBD-II port" with a 37 pin connector, and most of those pins are used, not blank. It runs a very thorough diagnostic program on everything, and I mean everything, engine, transmission, fuel system, emissions controls, electrical system, SRS and ABS, tire pressure monitoring system, you name it, it checks AND reports back what it found.
In ten minutes it does tests that would take hours and hours of diagnostic procedures "by hand". Cheating? Perhaps, but these cars would likely be unfixable and utterly unaffordable if troubleshooting had to be done "the old way" (i.e. by someone who knows something). The computer reduces me to a parts changer - but it tells me precisely WHICH obscure, exotic part to change, and in a really complex system the alternative is to just throw expensive parts at it until it works again - not acceptable.
Two years ago the A/C went out. Argh. Visions of dollar signs dancing in my head. Hook up the diagnostics computer, five minutes later it tells me "Module 1157 out of range". OK, computer, want to tell me what module 1157 is thinking? "Module 1157 reports outside air temperature is -40C, zero percent humidity." This is in Florida. In August. As they say in the UK, Not bloody likely.
Look up MB part number, it is $400 new - but it is not a wear item like tires or serpentine belts, it simply failed. Check part number on eBay, $11.72 delivered (parts yard), one plug and three screws later, the A/C works perfectly.
This thing pointed me directly to the problem in five minutes. I honestly think that is the only practical way to deal with late model vehicles that are orders of magnitude more complex than stuff that may only be several years older. The vehicles are not going to get simpler, so we have to change how we deal with the new complexity.
And yes, I do know how to rebuild carburetors, do brakes, shocks, engine overhauls, even manual transmissions (they're no fun) but I draw the line at automatic transmissions. (I did have to look up HPOP, but that's because the only diesel I own is my Kubota, which doesn't use one - I think.)
The problem arises when diagnostics boxes and service information isn't available. (Hello John Deere . . . ). I CAN fix it myself, but if the dealer or manufacturer says no, you can't because (insert whatever BS reason they use to prevent me), then I will absolutely not buy their product. Obviously, I support right to repair laws, and not just for toasters and microwaves. If I can't fix it myself because the seller won't let me, I will not buy it and I don't want to own it.
In theory, EVs will be simpler . . . but I'm not holding my breath.
Best Regards,
Mike/Florida
I've owned over 150 cars since I was 16, some ridiculous, some sublime. The old stuff was simple, as the vehicles got newer and newer (and actually better and better), they got more and more complex. This meant if I was going to fix them myself, I had to upgrade my skill levels and my tool box. That's fine, I like the challenge, love learning, and hate to pay retail prices for crappy work which I will have to redo anyway.
The current "Queen of the fleet" is a Mercedes convertible. (No it is not a pickup truck, but if I were single, it might be a pickup car . . . never mind.) It is mind-boggling complex. It is a triumph of German engineering - never use one part where ten will suffice. I am continually amazed how they got all those trick techno-doo-dads squeezed into one rather small package, but they did, and they all work and it looks good, too. I have lost count of the computer modules in it, the sound system is fiber-optics (!) it has stuff I'm still discovering. The heat and A/C controls alone get several pages of small print in the owner's manual.
Anyway, this is NOT a vehicle that I can expect to fix with duct tape and baling wire (I've had a few that I could ;-) so I bought an aftermarket diagnostics computer. I got a deal on it, someone bought it and paid $450 for it (which was cheap) but it wouldn't fit his car, and he offered it to me for $50 - which I snapped up.
It plugs into the "advanced OBD-II port" with a 37 pin connector, and most of those pins are used, not blank. It runs a very thorough diagnostic program on everything, and I mean everything, engine, transmission, fuel system, emissions controls, electrical system, SRS and ABS, tire pressure monitoring system, you name it, it checks AND reports back what it found.
In ten minutes it does tests that would take hours and hours of diagnostic procedures "by hand". Cheating? Perhaps, but these cars would likely be unfixable and utterly unaffordable if troubleshooting had to be done "the old way" (i.e. by someone who knows something). The computer reduces me to a parts changer - but it tells me precisely WHICH obscure, exotic part to change, and in a really complex system the alternative is to just throw expensive parts at it until it works again - not acceptable.
Two years ago the A/C went out. Argh. Visions of dollar signs dancing in my head. Hook up the diagnostics computer, five minutes later it tells me "Module 1157 out of range". OK, computer, want to tell me what module 1157 is thinking? "Module 1157 reports outside air temperature is -40C, zero percent humidity." This is in Florida. In August. As they say in the UK, Not bloody likely.
Look up MB part number, it is $400 new - but it is not a wear item like tires or serpentine belts, it simply failed. Check part number on eBay, $11.72 delivered (parts yard), one plug and three screws later, the A/C works perfectly.
This thing pointed me directly to the problem in five minutes. I honestly think that is the only practical way to deal with late model vehicles that are orders of magnitude more complex than stuff that may only be several years older. The vehicles are not going to get simpler, so we have to change how we deal with the new complexity.
And yes, I do know how to rebuild carburetors, do brakes, shocks, engine overhauls, even manual transmissions (they're no fun) but I draw the line at automatic transmissions. (I did have to look up HPOP, but that's because the only diesel I own is my Kubota, which doesn't use one - I think.)
The problem arises when diagnostics boxes and service information isn't available. (Hello John Deere . . . ). I CAN fix it myself, but if the dealer or manufacturer says no, you can't because (insert whatever BS reason they use to prevent me), then I will absolutely not buy their product. Obviously, I support right to repair laws, and not just for toasters and microwaves. If I can't fix it myself because the seller won't let me, I will not buy it and I don't want to own it.
In theory, EVs will be simpler . . . but I'm not holding my breath.
Best Regards,
Mike/Florida
I constantly hear the "I was alive in the 60s for the smog" argument supporting emission regulations. Well we fixed that. You don't need to keep fixing that. That is called fixing it till its broke. Fix something else. The more complicated these vehicles get to meet regulations the more cost is passed to the consumer and the more quality and longevity is sacrificed. I dont want a car/truck with variable cam timing and AFM or MDS which add cost. That cost is not eaten by the manufacture its passed to you. In order to get you to by the car, cost is cut in other places. You get a nice plastic oil pan or once nicely welded aluminum air conditioning tubing is now plastic, your forged rods are now PM rods and enjoy your beautiful plastic intake manifold. If they cut all vehicle emissions to zero they wont be happy they will just come after the next thing to "fix". Buddy you eat too much, you use too much water, you have too many kids, you need to be that cool/warm in winter/summer? Have newer vehicles gotten more reliable? Yes. To a point. They meet their b50 average and then they are about done and head to the crusher or how ever they dispose of these things now. The pendulum always swings back IMO peak auto reliability in general was early 90's until early 2000's.