Dealer Service

[heyinway]

You need to find an independent shop.

 

[MHarryE]

Follow up on my last post. Here is the AEM report through May. Note that the equipment manufacturers have hit a wall. Phenomenal sales in the first quarter 2021 depleted inventory to a point where they have been unable to catch up. Numbers are sales, not production. High sales in 2021 were depleting inventory leaving dealers with empty lots. And it only helps to add assembly workers if there are parts to assemble. A tractor or track loader assembled in Georgia cannot go out the door without the engine assembled in Japan or planetaries assembled in Italy.

 

[5030]

You need to find an independent shop.

Great idea but it don't work for the new T4 final units because you have to have a Diagmaster and up to date software to even access the ECM. Independent shops can do the mechanical work but that is it. Only dealers have the Diagmaster and only they can access toe software updates. Was looking at my dealer's Diagmaster today. Was paired to a laptop and was downloading the latest updates.

Like Dennis told me, Kubota considers all of it ' proprietary data' I will be glad when the Deere 'right to repair' group gets a final finding on their lawsuit because other manufacturers will have to follow suit.

I'm not happy that Kubota won't give me the access code for my new bailer. I bought the dam thing, I should be able to access everything in the computer but they won't let me. Why I put an extended warranty on it actually.

 

[Hay Dude]

Is there a trick to get a dealer to work on a tractor. My nephew forgot to enable auto regen when his electricity went out. Tractor driving emergency gen for 20 hours, was near 99% at start, was at 160% in the morning, wouldn’t regen, so in a week dealer picked it up. It’s his main feeding tractor and FIP on his old IH backup - replacement can’t be made to run. So my new M5-111 is his chore tractor, except when I need to cut or bale (every day) so it’s in shuttle mode. Meantime blower failed in cab of my M7. It’s buried under the seat and blocked by side panels. I’ve torn it apart, 8 hour job, found problem is wire connector pinched under AC unit. Cab needs to be removed. Dealer hasn’t even responded to my calls. I’ve spent over $500,000 at the dealer since 2013 including 3 tractors between $100k and $200k each . Is this todays service? Every time I run the M7, a warning light come on saying the hydraulic oil is bypassing due to heat - sometimes within 2 minutes of start. Kubota says likely a switch failure, done worry. I worry that it’s been a year and they don’t have time to fix. Also the software is to be updated under warranty but Kubota won’t let them come out to my farm to update - I need to pay $1000 hauling to get it done, but the other problems keep cropping up. Kubota should be proud of my $18 12v fan in my cab as a crutch. Are all dealers getting this was or is my WI dealer an outlier? No promise yet when nephews M111GX gets back - it has 4,200 hours no problem but one slip on his part and he’s screwed.

I‘d guess part of the problem is that its prime time farming this time of year and dealers are stretched thin. I began buying as much equipment I could from one specific dealer because they are service oriented. Whatever shortcomings AGCO may have (if any) they make up for in excellent service and parts and then some.
$500,000 is a decent amount, but be sure you are well behind many farmers as 500k is small fry (at least in my area).
We have a breakdown about every 2 or 3 days and can handle most repairs myself, but then there’s that little issue of getting hay baled and making money.
I haul anything I can’t fix to dealer myself at night after work to save transportation costs.

Had a repair this morning that I could barely handle. My AGCO dealer had a tech ready to send to me in under an hour- all I had to do was say the word. Luckily, I was able to drill out broken off studs, get parts installed and get going in the field. They keep their parts dept open 24/7 in season and have a tech on standby to take calls after hours. Have a good Case-IH dealer, too.

I have run 2 130HP Kubotas for 13 years now and I am not exactly impressed with them.
I think the legacy, serious farming brands (AGCO/Deere/CNH) are still the go-to for farming. Kubota still light on equipment used for daily farming.

Anyway, not much help but I would suggest shopping dealer first and brand second or third. I think your original inclination to go to an AGCO dealer (Massey/Challenger/Fendt) may have brought you more satisfaction.

I wish you luck with your dealer and may suggest you go to another dealer and ask questions about buying their equipment. Word spreads fast-maybe it’ll get back to your Kubota dealer?

 

[sea2summit]

THank you for bringing this subject up.

I think we got into this position because we bought so many products which we knew were not designed to be repaired. Even a casual glance would show us that today's dealerships - whether tractors, cars, appliances, tools, or you name it... do not have the facilities, parts, education, personnel, or backing to repair their own products. Nor do they feel a responsibility to do so. There has been a major shift in our manufacturing philosophy.
Manufacturers are now selling goods designed to be replaced rather than repaired.

And knowing all this, we are still voting with our dollars to buy unrepairable produts.
The inescapable conclusion is that we have done this to ourselves - and we continue to do so.

If we continue to mortgage our land to buy newer tools to farm it, then eventually our land will belong to those corporations. A lot of it does now. And we will be working for them. Is that what we want?

It's not too late to change things around, but the later it gets the harder it becomes to make changes.

rScotty

And the legal issues continue with right to repair! Can’t these manufacturers figure it out? Not sure we have done it to ourselves, unless you know options I don’t? Heck, the last several things I bought were purposefully outdated just so I could fix them myself for a reasonable cost!

 

[5030]

Why I will not purchase a new T4 final tractor. I prefer 100% mechanical injection. YThe more complex they get, the more chance for failure. With the new Kubota's (my technician told me) it's more about owners not adhering to the Kubota recommended regen procedure than anything else to which I commented that maybe Kubota needs to change the regen parameters from being able to over ride to no over ride.

 

[ultrarunner]

No over ride could leave you in a bad way could it not?

There are times when it is move it or loose it… applying to equipment as in the case of massive California wildfires and in terms of harvesting when the window is short and tractors work around the click…

 

[sea2summit]

Why I will not purchase a new T4 final tractor. I prefer 100% mechanical injection. YThe more complex they get, the more chance for failure. With the new Kubota's (my technician told me) it's more about owners not adhering to the Kubota recommended regen procedure than anything else to which I commented that maybe Kubota needs to change the regen parameters from being able to over ride to no over ride.

No way. My MX has no over ride and my M4 has over ride. My MX loves to decide it needs to regen when I'm cooling off the turbo after a job getting ready to shut down so then I have to reheat/overheat it to burn it. On the M4 I have only had that happen once I recall, so over rode but on the next start up as soon as she was hotted up allowed the regen no problems and that would be my preferred method.

 

[5030]

No over ride could leave you in a bad way could it not?

There are times when it is move it or loose it… applying to equipment as in the case of massive California wildfires and in terms of harvesting when the window is short and tractors work around the click…

it could I guess but I wonder what the alternatives are? Dennis told me issues arise when owners over ride multiple times in a row and the DPF unit gets clogged and then bad things start happening. I guess it's a multiple over ride issue more than anything else.

He told me that Kubota will deny warranty on any machine when they determine that the failure was the result of multiple over rides. How they determine that I have no idea but I bet every time you over ride the regen, the ECM logs that event. Trouble with ECM controlled engines, the ECM is usually smarter than the owner is.

Commented a while back that he told me they actually had one come in where the owner just kept using the over ride button and the cannister became completely clogged and was back feeding the exhaust into the engine itself and destroyed it. Don't know if Kubota warranted any of it or not because that was a while ago. I did ask the regional rep about it when he was here at the farm adjusting the net tail stickout on my new bailer and he confirmed that they would not. He also commented to me on the side that I was much better off not having any emissions compliant computer controlled units. My philosophy is, if it don't blow off some particulates when I throttle them up, I don't want it. Neither of mine blow smoke except when throttling up under load. Once they assume the load, the exhaust is just heat, no visible smoke at all and both of mine are very frugal on using diesel anyway which is a good thing considering what ORD costs today.

 

[5030]

No way. My MX has no over ride and my M4 has over ride. My MX loves to decide it needs to regen when I'm cooling off the turbo after a job getting ready to shut down so then I have to reheat/overheat it to burn it. On the M4 I have only had that happen once I recall, so over rode but on the next start up as soon as she was hotted up allowed the regen no problems and that would be my preferred method.

Don't know which have an over ride button and which don't actually. I guess my big issue with it is it takes additional fuel to regen and ORD ain't cheap and with the largest ones, you have the DPF fluid as well to purchase. I believe Dennis told me over 100 pto horsepower, the DEF comes into play.

How does it notify you when it requires a regen? An idiot light on the dash or a audible warning or what?

 

[sea2summit]

Don't know which have an over ride button and which don't actually. I guess my big issue with it is it takes additional fuel to regen and ORD ain't cheap and with the largest ones, you have the DPF fluid as well to purchase. I believe Dennis told me over 100 pto horsepower, the DEF comes into play.

How does it notify you when it requires a regen? An idiot light on the dash or a audible warning or what?

M4 is 6 years newer so it has a display option to tell me how close it is to needing it which helps a lot and it's pretty easy to plan around the regen, there is an idiot light and an angry buzzer if you ignore the idiot light for some set amount of time.

 

[MHarryE]

Follow up - dealer came through and tractor is back. Failed temperature switch replaced, and problem confirmed to be wire pulled from connector which I had diagnosed but didn’t have help to disassemble the cab to get to the connector (which was not where it should have been in the pictures in the WSM - it should have been an easy repair for me but due to the difference my tractor and WSM, the entire cab floor needed to be removed along with disassembling the consoles.

 

[Hay Dude]

After reading MHarryE’s thread (thanks BTW-very informative) seems like to me that it’s bad enough that owners of these tractors are saddled with the extra expense and maintenance. At least the manufacturer could make the system simple and easy enough to work on that the owner can get it going quickly.

Don’t throw the “environmentalist dream package” on a stinkin farm tractor and make it add $5,000 in cost and make it difficult to fix on site.

I’ll own a vehicle with an after treatment system, but I’d doubt I’ll ever own a tractor with one. Too many nice 10+ year old tractors out there without it to pass up on. Heck the 10+ year old ones can be difficult to fix

 

[workinonit]

You know that we have digressed as a society when you take your tractor to the dealer for repair and a guy comes across the yard with his tools to repair your problem and those tools consist of a laptoop and USB cable. That would all be fine if they understood what they were seeing in the program and knew what to do with the information. For the most part these dealers have no clue. They are flying by the seat of their pants and shotgunning problems.

 

[WVH1977]

I would really like to buy a new tractor in the future but I am very hesitant because of things mentioned in this post. I am not a mechanic and don't want to become one. I do however want equipment where I can utilize friends that are mechanics to help and not be beholden to a dealer to fix things on their timeline when I am broke down. Then worry about the manufacturer not holding up their end on warranty.

A buddy of mine was talking new boats and brought up that boats manufactured in the last 2 years have lost the quality and are having lots of littles issues here and there. When you pay 50 to 60 grand for anything, you should not be worrying about parts failing and coming apart/rusting, etc. within a few hours of use. I have read on here numerous times where folks buy a new tractor and have to have it worked on several times to get it to run right. That should not be the case ands in my opinion "unacceptable". We should be able to buy a new tractor and not have to worry about a dealer if the equipment is put together correctly.

I know this next statement has nothing to do with dealers/tractors but we have a sister church in Ohio that has been there for a long time. They have a playground that was built by the depression era folks who were all tradesmen. Machinist/Tool and Die/Welders, etc. That playground is probably 50 years old and built to stand the test of time. My big but can sit or climb on any of it and it does not move. I am always impressed when I see it. I believe we have lost that desire to build things to last. I also believe all of this new "technology" is making us less resilient and when it does break you are screwed. I deal with this everyday for my line of work. Call the "Help Desk", and hear there are 97 callers ahead of you!!!! No wonder we can't get anything done.

 

[5030]

You know that we have digressed as a society when you take your tractor to the dealer for repair and a guy comes across the yard with his tools to repair your problem and those tools consist of a laptoop and USB cable. That would all be fine if they understood what they were seeing in the program and knew what to do with the information. For the most part these dealers have no clue. They are flying by the seat of their pants and shotgunning problems.

I Agree to a point and that is, the laptop and the proper adapters as well as the scan tool dealers have that the tractor builders provide to them as an interface will tell the tech generally what is wrong but the tech still has to remove and replace the defective or malfunctioning parts or parts, the computer won't do that for him or her. Guess my dealer is one of the exceptions as they don't 'fly by the seat of the pants' that I can see.

All this electronic and emissions related wizadry is about the EPA and their mandates and fir the most part, they are administered by book smart people with no hands on experience in the first place.

 

[MHarryE]

Emissions regs written by people with no experience - not true, my perspective from the manufacturer side. Lots of discussion among the manufacturers and people writing regulations about what can be done and what timeline. Things written into the regulations about getting credit for engines built significantly better than required and using those credits to continue selling engines not meeting the standard so all models didn't have to be changed at once. We in the industry were integrating computers into our machines long before the first Tier 1 standard became effective in 1997. Today's Tier 4 standards were set in 2004 with the first Tier 4 implemented in 2012. By the time Tier 4 was set, engine companies had a lot of research and bought into the timeline. They were not numbers pulled out of the air. Some companies ran into snags when they discovered their planned methods didn't pan out as expected. From the industry side, there was a lot of customer input as to what they wanted in their future purchases and a lot of the input dictated computer controls whether the EPA standard was dictating they were needed or not. For me, I could manage my test fleet from wherever I was using my laptop to download the data, including fault codes, every day. That ability is not built into smaller tractors but its how JD can shut down tractors and combines stolen from Ukrainian farmers, and the same can be done for tractors and combines (of the higher end units anyway) stolen in North America.

 

[rScotty]

Emissions regs written by people with no experience - not true, my perspective from the manufacturer side. Lots of discussion among the manufacturers and people writing regulations about what can be done and what timeline. Things written into the regulations about getting credit for engines built significantly better than required and using those credits to continue selling engines not meeting the standard so all models didn't have to be changed at once. We in the industry were integrating computers into our machines long before the first Tier 1 standard became effective in 1997. Today's Tier 4 standards were set in 2004 with the first Tier 4 implemented in 2012. By the time Tier 4 was set, engine companies had a lot of research and bought into the timeline. They were not numbers pulled out of the air. Some companies ran into snags when they discovered their planned methods didn't pan out as expected. From the industry side, there was a lot of customer input as to what they wanted in their future purchases and a lot of the input dictated computer controls whether the EPA standard was dictating they were needed or not. For me, I could manage my test fleet from wherever I was using my laptop to download the data, including fault codes, every day. That ability is not built into smaller tractors but its how JD can shut down tractors and combines stolen from Ukrainian farmers, and the same can be done for tractors and combines (of the higher end units anyway) stolen in North America.

What I see here is a giant opportunity for some tractor company to leap over competitors.

By now it is pretty obvious that the problem with repair is that the customer feels left out of the loop. They feel that they have made a large investment in something that they have no control over and no way that they can be involved even if they want to be. Insurance and warranties are one answer, but have proven not as satisfying to the buyer - or to the dealer for that matter..

One answer for that would be for a dealer to require that at least some of their employees have more education about their products and be willing to help. But that is difficult, expensive, and takes time if it works at all. It is the traditional route, but no longer seems to fit our workforce.

Maybe it would be enough to just make a simple start toward customer satisfaction. First steps don't have to include everything. If a manufacturer decided to help a customer feel comfortable about dealer support, that customer would be encouraged about doing some of the basic maintenance and adjustments. And in turn, might then better about taking it to the dealer for any more involved work.

At least it would be a step in a better direction.
The way we are going now - promoting the "hands off" approach - doesn't work for me, and is drawing a lot of criticism along with very little support. That spells opportunity for someone.

rScotty

rScotty

 

[ultrarunner]

I think your phrase the customer feels out of the loop is spot on...

 

[workinonit]

Kubota software may be different but the JD software only gives them generic solutions to codes. What the software does is give them a full array of analog and digital I/O that is very helpful with toroubleshooting problems if the tech knows how the system is supposed to be working and he knows how to translate what he is reading. Typically what I see is that a code, say an EGR code for the flow sensor, is active and their first inclination is to change the sensor. Probably not what the problem is. It could be the EGR valve causing a low flow or the EGR cooler that is interrupting the flow somehow. The good, sharp techs that are motivated know how to interpret these issues and the others simply shotgun. I think we very likely have a lot of shotgunners out there.

I Agree to a point and that is, the laptop and the proper adapters as well as the scan tool dealers have that the tractor builders provide to them as an interface will tell the tech generally what is wrong but the tech still has to remove and replace the defective or malfunctioning parts or parts, the computer won't do that for him or her. Guess my dealer is one of the exceptions as they don't 'fly by the seat of the pants' that I can see.

All this electronic and emissions related wizadry is about the EPA and their mandates and fir the most part, they are administered by book smart people with no hands on experience in the first place.