DDT & Lyme disease

[smstonypoint]

Preface

When I first read the post below, I thought it was a clever piece of tongue-in-cheek writing. However, now I am not so sure -- the poster may be sincere. If the post is intended to be tongue-in-cheek, my hat is off to him. Otherwise, my comments apply.

Lyme disease is believed to come from Plum Island, and island off the coast of Connecticut, close to Lyme, CT. It is an island where to this day there is a government facility which was experimenting with biologicals and other forms of warfare. Ticks were the chosen means of transmitting what is now called Lyme disease; and it is an 'experiment' gone wrong, which cannot be put back in the bottle.

Re: Rachael Carson's Silent Spring being junk science; spoken like a no nothing moron. It's junk if it doesn't fit you personal agenda and belief system. No, science is based on facts, not wishful thinking or creationism and other devoid of facts nonsense.

DDT and Lyme, two completely different, absolutely no connection threats to humankind from our own labs. Deer are merely the transport vehicle for the infected ticks.
Junk science is what the OP dreamed up regarding his friend and DDT and Lyme. Get a grip.

"No, science is based on facts, not wishful thinking or creationism and other devoid of facts nonsense."

Said the pot to the kettle.

"Lyme disease is believed to come from Plum Island, and island off the coast of Connecticut, close to Lyme, CT."

Believed by whom? You? That renowned scientist, Jesse Ventura?

"Ticks were the chosen means of transmitting what is now called Lyme disease; and it is an 'experiment' gone wrong, which cannot be put back in the bottle.........

DDT and Lyme, two completely different, absolutely no connection threats to humankind from our own labs."

So, Lyme Disease was produced in a lab?

Here's some info from the National Geographic Society: What Is Lyme Disease? New Findings Deepen the Mystery.

In 2012, a team of researchers claimed that the 5,300-year-old mummy known as Otzi the Iceman, discovered along the Austria-Italy border in 1991, had contracted Lyme.

Some claim that the disease first appeared in Germany in the 1880s or France in the 1920s; others say it took root in the U.S. around the time of the Great Depression.

<snip>

One theory -- compelling but controversial -- about the sudden emergence of the disease in Connecticut blames the accidental release of infected ticks during experiments at Plum Island Animal Disease Center, on Long Island Sound about eight miles south of Lyme.

Originally operated by the U.S. Army, then by the Department of Agriculture, and now by the Department of Homeland Security, the facility's official mandate is defense research relating to agricultural bioterrorism.

A book by Michael Carroll called Lab 257 cites post-World War II experiments on Plum Island that involved using ticks as disease vectors for germ warfare.

Officials have denied the allegations, but Carroll and others -- including former Minnesota Gov. Jesse Ventura-- allege the government has used the facility to develop various diseases intended for delivery as biological weapons.

The nexus between Lyme Disease and Plum Island is speculative at best -- it is not a "scientific fact." Get a grip.

Steve

 

[TomSeller]

Lyme disease is believed to come from Plum Island, and island off the coast of Connecticut, close to Lyme, CT. It is an island where to this day there is a government facility which was experimenting with biologicals and other forms of warfare. Ticks were the chosen means of transmitting what is now called Lyme disease; and it is an 'experiment' gone wrong, which cannot be put back in the bottle.
.

I had not seen this until now. Wow!

 

[Coyote machine]

Preface

When I first read the post below, I thought it was a clever piece of tongue-in-cheek writing. However, now I am not so sure -- the poster may be sincere. If the post is intended to be tongue-in-cheek, my hat is off to him. Otherwise, my comments apply.

The 'poster' is sincere. Suppose you own property directly across from Plum Island, in CT, do you? I seriously doubt it. Some of my family is almost close enough to touch Plum Island, and has lived in Old Black Point CT; (sorry it's a gated community so only owners and their family/guests are allowed), for over 100 years. The epi-center of Lyme disease is right there, and there are and have been deer herds roaming the wooded areas there even more so since it has been built up over the last 50 or so years.

I said ""Lyme disease is believed to come from Plum Island, and island off the coast of Connecticut, close to Lyme, CT."
I didn't cite a source because I'm not all that familiar with the entire Lyme disease manifestation personally; though I had a recent conversation with someone who is very familiar with it, and that is where my comment(s) came from. And my saying it is 'believed' doesn't make what I said untrue or some creationism gibberish either.



"No, science is based on facts, not wishful thinking or creationism and other devoid of facts nonsense."

Said the pot to the kettle.

Meaning what exactly, you don't believe in science, too, just like the OP?

"Lyme disease is believed to come from Plum Island, and island off the coast of Connecticut, close to Lyme, CT."

Believed by whom? You? That renowned scientist, Jesse Ventura?

Don't know or care a tinker's damnn about Jesse Ventura, and YOU'RE the one citing sources making my point for me about the government biological lab, which was discussed in my conversation with the person I mentioned above.

"Ticks were the chosen means of transmitting what is now called Lyme disease; and it is an 'experiment' gone wrong, which cannot be put back in the bottle.........

DDT and Lyme, two completely different, absolutely no connection threats to humankind from our own labs."

So, Lyme Disease was produced in a lab?

You can read can't you? Let's see, government denial of wrongdoing and experiments of weaponizing biologicals - nah, that could never happen in the USA....
Keep on dreaming....

Here's some info from the National Geographic Society: What Is Lyme Disease? New Findings Deepen the Mystery.



The nexus between Lyme Disease and Plum Island is speculative at best -- it is not a "scientific fact."

So say you...try providing facts disproving the connection.

Get a grip.

Take your own advice...I have a good grip on reality; it's the OP who needs a mental status check.

Steve

Believe what you want to- it makes no difference to me. What I know is the conversation I cited having recently is with someone who is very well versed in Lyme disease, where it came from, and how and why it got off the island and into the general population. Nowhere on Earth, you know the big round ball we all live on, is Lyme more prevalent than Lyme, CT. I have so many friends who have had numerous cases of Lyme, and many who have had recurrent battles with the disease over many, many years it's truly frightening. It's killing some of them as a result of what they need to take to battle it and it's adverse effects on their bodies.
Recognize I'm NOT in any way professing being any expert on Lyme- far from it. I am just reporting what I have discussed with those who do know what they are talking about when it comes to Lyme Disease.

We,TBN members, probably even including you, could have a discussion about Roundup and it's pervasiveness in and around the entire world, by the chemical giant Monsanto. There is a recent article I haven't completed reading yet, I came across in, IIRC, Business Week, about how Roundup is coming up for mandatory approval of it's considered to be non-carcinogenic status as a herbicide. The panelists, over eight, of fifteen expressed serious concerns about the findings, and the summary was worded so vaguely it is impossible to conclude what was actually expressed by those who had concerns. So, assuming the EPA isn't disbanded and defunded to the point of becoming obsolete, Roundup will likely get another rubber stamping and all will be well in the genetically engineered crops 'field' of producing products that are Roundup resistant, for another bunch of years. Chemical companies dictating policy with HUGE money, no potential problems with that, eh?!:confused3:
My comments apply...
And you can put it in your genetically engineered corn-cob pipe and smoke it too...be careful what you wish for, it could be coming to a neighborhood near you.:confused3:

 

[oosik]

Well - I sure don't know about Lyme disease but there is one thing I know is fact. Coyote Machine mentions it in one of his posts above. "The government weaponizing biologicals". This is fact. This is what my father did during WW2. I can remember up until the last day I got to talk to him - he could never speak directly about what biologicals they worked with but he always indicated it was their job to make the horrible much worse. I know he was not proud of this work but what are you going to do during a wartime situation. He was a college graduate biologist and that was his assigned job.

 

[smstonypoint]

The 'poster' is sincere. ...... The epi-center of Lyme disease is right there, and there are and have been deer herds roaming the wooded areas there even more so since it has been built up over the last 50 or so years.

<snip>

Nowhere on Earth, you know the big round ball we all live on, is Lyme more prevalent than Lyme, CT.

If Lyme is the epicenter, then we would expect the incidence of Lyme disease to be higher in Connecticut than in other states, right?

Here's a listing of the states with the highest incidence of confirmed Lyme disease per 100,000 population (2013-15 average) from the CDC (Lyme disease data tables | Lyme Disease | CDC)

Vermont -- 85.5
Maine -- 82.5
New Hampshire -- 59.8
Connecticut -- 52.9

Vermont has an incidence rate 43% higher than Connecticut. What credible evidence can you offer to support your claim?

I didn't cite a source because I'm not all that familiar with the entire Lyme disease manifestation personally; though I had a recent conversation with someone who is very familiar with it, and that is where my comment(s) came from. And my saying it is 'believed' doesn't make what I said untrue or some creationism gibberish either.

It doesn't make it true or anything other than gibberish either.

What I know is the conversation I cited having recently is with someone who is very well versed in Lyme disease, where it came from, and how and why it got off the island and into the general population.

So, as someone who is "not all that familiar with the entire Lyme disease manifestation personally," how did you judge that your interlocutor was "very well versed in Lyme disease"?

What are his/her credentials?

Surely your interlocutor must have published his/her research in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Please direct us to those journal articles.

Does having read the Michael Carroll book make him/her an expert?

Your takeaway from a personal conversation with an individual who you judge to be "very well versed in Lyme disease" doesn't constitute scientific evidence.

Did your interlocutor tell you about these findings from Margos et al. * -- Lyme Disease Bacterium Came From Europe Before Ice Age -- ScienceDaily?


"The bacterium responsible for Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, originated in America, or so researchers thought. Now, however, a team from the University of Bath has shown that this bug in fact came from Europe, originating from before the Ice Age.......

The study's findings appear to show that Borrelia burgdorferi originated in Europe but that the species has been present in North America for a long time. The researchers suggest its re-emergence there in the 1970s occurred after the geographic territory of the tick that carries the bacteria expanded, for example through the restoration of woodland."*

Meaning what exactly, you don't believe in science, too, just like the OP?

Meaning that you accuse the OP of accepting unscientific evidence while you give credence to an interlocutor who appears to be blowing smoke on the topic. You should practice what you preach.

You can read can't you? Let's see, government denial of wrongdoing and experiments of weaponizing biologicals - nah, that could never happen in the USA.....

I understand English -- it is my Mother Tongue. I hope that I have developed critical thinking skills and I expect extraordinary evidence from folks making extraordinary claims.

Here's some additional info on Carroll from CNN.com - The mysterious lab off New York's shore - Apr 2, 2004

"... Carroll, an attorney, admitted to The Associated Press that he has no direct evidence of his book's horrific tales, just years of research. 'Every investigation is about connecting the dots,' he said.

Others disagree with his stories.

'I personally just don't think that has any merit,' David Weld, the executive director of the American Lyme Disease Foundation, told the AP."

I don't have any issues with lawyers, but I don't rely on them when it comes to scientific matters. When it comes to scientific issues, I give more credence to someone with a PhD in a relevant discipline than to someone with a JD. Also, I am more inclined to give credence to peer-reviewed findings published in scientific journals than to conspiracy theories published in books intended for a mass market.

If there was any credible scientific evidence to support Carroll's conspiracy theory, I expect that trial lawyers would have filed lawsuits on the behalf of those afflicted with Lyme disease. As I understand it, the plaintiffs' lawyers would be able to depose the Plum Island officials/employees and obtain evidence via the discovery process. Please advise us as to the lawsuits that have been filed and the outcomes of those lawsuits.

So say you...try providing facts disproving the connection.

Even the author of the conspiracy theory admits he doesn't have any direct evidence. If you are willing to accept a lawyer's conspiracy theory, fine with me. I'm inclined to give more credence to the scientific evidence provided by Margos et al. and others with scientific credentials.

Some of my family is almost close enough to touch Plum Island, and has lived in Old Black Point CT; (sorry it's a gated community so only owners and their family/guests are allowed), for over 100 years.

<snip>

Roundup and it's pervasiveness in and around the entire world

<snip>

approval of it's considered to be non-carcinogenic status as a herbicide.

I grew up in a rural part of NC where the only gates present allowed access to cow pastures. However, somewhere along the line, I think in the third grade, I learned the correct usage of "its" versus "it's."


Steve

* Here's a partial listing of the authors of the referenced study:
Gabriele Margos
Departments of Biology and Biochemistry and
Anne G. Gatewod
Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Yale School of Medicine, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520;
David M. Aanensen
Department of Infectious Disease Epidemiology, Imperial College London, St. Mary's Hospital, London W2 1PG, United Kingdom;
Klára Hanincová
Department of Microbiology and Immunology and
Darya Terekhova
Department of Microbiology and Immunology and
Stephanie A. Vollmer
Departments of Biology and Biochemistry and
Muriel Cornet
Centres Nationaux de Référence des Borrelia et de la Leptospirose, Institut Pasteur, 75724 Paris Cedex 15, France;
Joseph Piesman
Bacterial Diseases Branch, Division of Vector-Borne Infectious Diseases, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Ft. Collins, CO 80521;
Michael Donaghy
Department of Clinical Neurology, John Radcliffe Hospital, University of Oxford, Oxford OX3 9DU, United Kingdom;
Antra Bormane
Public Health Agency, LV-1012, Riga, Latvia; and
Merrilee A. Hurn
Mathematical Sciences, University of Bath, Bath BA2 7AY, United Kingdom;
Edward J. Feil
Departments of Biology and Biochemistry and
Durland Fish
Department of Epidemiology and Public Health, Yale School of Medicine, Yale University, New Haven, CT 06520;
Sherwood Casjens
Division of Cell Biology and Immunology, Department of Pathology, University of Utah Medical School, Salt Lake City, UT 84132
Gary P. Wormser
Division of Infectious Diseases, Department of Medicine, New York Medical College, Valhalla, NY 10595;

 

[smstonypoint]

I don't have any issues with lawyers, but I don't rely on them when it comes to scientific matters.

I just remembered an experience of one of my colleagues while he was testifying as an expert witness. I will call him Jim, but his real name is Hal (short for Harold).

Lawyer A (after an extended whispering session with other lawyers on his team): Professor, you testified on direct examination that the mean price was $X/unit. What was the average price?

Jim: The mean and average are identical.

Lawyer A: Oh. No further questions, Your Honor.

Steve

 

[Rara Avis]

I just remembered an experience of one of my colleagues while he was testifying as an expert witness. I will call him Jim, but his real name is Hal (short for Harold).

Lawyer A (after an extended whispering session with other lawyers on his team): Professor, you testified on direct examination that the mean price was $X/unit. What was the average price?

Jim: The mean and average are identical.

Lawyer A: Oh. No further questions, Your Honor.

Steve

Trial lawyers have an old saying: “You never ask a question on cross examination to which you do not know the answer to.”

Lawyer A violated the rule...

 

[Coyote machine]

If Lyme is the epicenter, then we would expect the incidence of Lyme disease to be higher in Connecticut than in other states, right?

IF YOU say so, it must be TRUTH, huh?!
And, NOT necessarily - Lyme is where it was named Lyme. Plum Island is where biological experiments were taking place and ticks were what became 'weaponized', for what purpose I don't know, nor do I care why it came about. It just happened, for all the wrong reasons, and it escaped its boundaries; now it's rampant... You do the arithmetic.

YOU say it's more evident elsewhere, NOW, but not when it was discovered and named.
You also say the Ice Man has it/had it - Lyme. Show proof he has/had it.
Aliens from outer space probably have it now too, but I'm not saying they do or don't, just that they might.

Here's a listing of the states with the highest incidence of confirmed Lyme disease per 100,000 population (2013-15 average) from the CDC (Lyme disease data tables | Lyme Disease | CDC)

Vermont -- 85.5
Maine -- 82.5
New Hampshire -- 59.8
Connecticut -- 52.9

Vermont has an incidence rate 43% higher than Connecticut. What credible evidence can you offer to support your claim?

Yeah, I live in VT, IF you read my signature, and saw it come into the State by dogs carrying infected ticks here many, many years ago. But I'm not here to prove anything to you, as I stated earlier believe what you want to, it will make no difference to me in the end.

Weren't you the one citing numerous opposing views about the science of what constitutes lyme, and where it came from, and if a bunch of the claims of having the disease were mis-diagnosed by counterculture and mainstream medicine?



It doesn't make it true or anything other than gibberish either.

So say YOU.




So, as someone who is "not all that familiar with the entire Lyme disease manifestation personally," how did you judge that your interlocutor was "very well versed in Lyme disease"?

I don't 'judge' my friends, nor do I need to justify their credibility. I and my wife's family have been part of the Lyme area and other close by areas of CT for over a hundred years. We are neighbors and friends of prominent people who were and are involved with the Sub-base, you know where they have the nuclear submarines, and some of those people hold/held prominent positions as designers and engineers of the subs in addition to top scientific positions in other industries on the coast. I can tell you that my uncle died of Cancer in late '50's from most likely having worked on biological weaponry during WW2.
You can believe Lyme came from dinosaurs if it suits you- but people in the Lyme area of CT know better.
Not everything one knows can be easily proven to be the case, but that doesn't make it false.
What are his/her credentials?

Surely your interlocutor must have published his/her research in peer-reviewed scientific journals. Please direct us to those journal articles.

I don't ask for a CV and other credentials while meeting with people at my family's private beach for lunch and swim time.

Does having read the Michael Carroll book make him/her an expert?

Don't know if they read the book; don't care either.

Your takeaway from a personal conversation with an individual who you judge to be "very well versed in Lyme disease" doesn't constitute scientific evidence.

Didn't say it did, you ASSumed I made that conclusion.

Did your interlocutor tell you about these findings from Margos et al. * -- Lyme Disease Bacterium Came From Europe Before Ice Age -- ScienceDaily?

Reference the note about beach conversation with a friend, above...


"The bacterium responsible for Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, originated in America, or so researchers thought. Now, however, a team from the University of Bath has shown that this bug in fact came from Europe, originating from before the Ice Age.......

The study's findings appear to show that Borrelia burgdorferi originated in Europe but that the species has been present in North America for a long time. The researchers suggest its re-emergence there in the 1970s occurred after the geographic territory of the tick that carries the bacteria expanded, for example through the restoration of woodland."*

I blue texted your statement above showing evidence that researchers 'thought', and the 'study's findings appear to show' and they 'suggest'....

Not real scientific from where I sit. It's a study, not fact just because researchers did research. Depending on who is the money behind studies, the outcome is often tainted or pointed in the direction the 'buyers' want to see a particular conclusion for their own agendas.



Meaning that you accuse the OP of accepting unscientific evidence while you give credence to an interlocutor who appears to be blowing smoke on the topic.

The OP is applying wishful thinking and spewing out nonsense hoping some of it will stick, for what reasons, who knows? And this has nothing to do with me - I'm NOT the OP. And I didn't post a thread with a title about 'ddt-lyme-disease', now did I?!



I understand English -- it is my Mother Tongue. I hope that I have developed critical thinking skills and I expect extraordinary evidence from folks making extraordinary claims.

I didn't ask if you spoke English, I asked if you can read, (English)?
You have high expectations; if you want more satisfaction in life adjust them to what reality delivers; once again, and we've been over this in numerous threads previous to this one; it's NOT all about YOU or what you want or expect.

Here's some additional info on Carroll from CNN.com - The mysterious lab off New York's shore - Apr 2, 2004

"... Carroll, an attorney, admitted to The Associated Press that he has no direct evidence of his book's horrific tales, just years of research. 'Every investigation is about connecting the dots,' he said.

Others disagree with his stories.

'I personally just don't think that has any merit,' David Weld, the executive director of the American Lyme Disease Foundation, told the AP."

I don't have any issues with lawyers, but I don't rely on them when it comes to scientific matters. When it comes to scientific issues, I give more credence to someone with a PhD in a relevant discipline than to someone with a JD.



Even the author of the conspiracy theory admits he doesn't have any direct evidence. If you are willing to accept a lawyer's conspiracy theory, fine with me. I'm inclined to give more credence to the scientific evidence provided by Margos et al. and others with scientific credentials.

Personally I'm not interested in conspiracy theories, and I don't have the time nor interest in drilling down through all the studies, evidence or un or scientific findings to come up with the Holy Grail of where Lyme came from, how it got there, etc. I have relied on those who know more than I because they have lived it, where it is most frequently believed by the largest number of people to have originated and how/why, etc.
It's good enough for me, and it's not some wild azzed throw out a question about DDT and Lyme hoping someone will bite on it, like the Op posted about at the thread opening.




I grew up in the rural NC where the only gates where to allow access to cow pastures. However, somewhere along the line, I think in the third grade, I learned the correct usage of "it's" versus "its."

Glad to hear you made it out of the cow pasture hopefully before picking yourself up from face down exposure to cow excrement. And you managed to master, you think around third grade, certain correct grammatical usages; well, it is a testament to Southern educational systems that you got that far, congratulations! Please excuse my typo, I didn't know I was being judged by a third grade education success story participant. I know the difference between it is and it's, just didn't catch it in my quick proofread of what I wrote. Didn't know it was a major crime to miss something in writing a post here on TBN. I do make a habit of proofreading all of what I write here, but sometimes in the rush to get back outside to work my property with my wife I make haste and errors will occur. Thanks for pointing out my usage error; however it still has no significance regarding the topic being discussed.
BTW, If my one error drives you to drink, you must go mad reading most threads here on TBN, probably including the Op's postings. Bad grammar/usage and general butchering of English get high marks for appearing rampantly throughout TBN, and you may be one of the only other people on this forum who gives a damnn other than me...See below for an interesting 'sidebar' of your own error(s)...It too can happen to even YOU!?:confused2::shocked:


Steve

* Here's a partial listing of the authors of the referenced study:
<Snip>

I grew up in the rural NC where the only gates where to allow access to cow pastures. However, somewhere along the line, I think in the third grade, I learned the correct usage of "it's" versus "its."

Let he who hast no sin cast the first stone! Seems the third grade didn't teach you that what you wanted to say was 'were', NOT, 'WHERE'. Oh well; I expect better from a self righteous guy like yourself....:cow:

 

[smstonypoint]

I grew up in the rural NC where the only gates where to allow access to cow pastures. However, somewhere along the line, I think in the third grade, I learned the correct usage of "it's" versus "its."

Let he who hast no sin cast the first stone! Seems the third grade didn't teach you that what you wanted to say was 'were', NOT, 'WHERE'. Oh well; I expect better from a self righteous guy like yourself....:cow:

Please note that I corrected my typo at 12:38 am, before you posted at 12:39 am.

It's my bedtime, so I will respond to the rest of your post later.

 

[TomSeller]

I'm sticking with CM's position on this one.