Crazy County Water Pressure

[Valveman]

For every 2.31 feet of elevation in the water tower you will get 1 PSI. Most towers are 115' to 138' tall, as that gives 50 or 60 PSI out. The houses at the base of the tower will get 50-60 PSI. But if you live down hill from the tower, pressure will increase by 1 PSI for every 2.31' in elevation drop. Pressure reducing valves are common. Cities will use them below towers when needed to keep from blowing up their lines. But they had rather not as they don't like to do maintenance on valves. Pressure reducing valves in houses are also common in more hilly areas for this reason. With that kind of pressure in the mains I would use a good pressure reducing valve, followed by a pressure relief valve, and also have an expansion tank on or close to the water heater.

For the guy with the jet pump, another pressure switch will not help. You need a pump that can deliver more pressure, then a higher setting on the pressure switch will help.

 

[oosik]

One of my duties with the government was review & approval of water systems. Big & small. I've seen pressures as high as 80psi. These, eventually, became such a PITA that measures were taken to cut it back to 60 or 65psi.

A system running 150psi would be a constant problem for both the owner of the system and the homeowners using the system.

Maintenance & repair costs alone would necessitate change. There are very few situations designed to handle 150psi. Firefighting equipment MIGHT fall into this category.

 

[nybirdman]

For every 2.31 feet of elevation in the water tower you will get 1 PSI. Most towers are 115' to 138' tall, as that gives 50 or 60 PSI out. The houses at the base of the tower will get 50-60 PSI. But if you live down hill from the tower, pressure will increase by 1 PSI for every 2.31' in elevation drop. Pressure reducing valves are common. Cities will use them below towers when needed to keep from blowing up their lines. But they had rather not as they don't like to do maintenance on valves. Pressure reducing valves in houses are also common in more hilly areas for this reason. With that kind of pressure in the mains I would use a good pressure reducing valve, followed by a pressure relief valve, and also have an expansion tank on or close to the water heater.

For the guy with the jet pump, another pressure switch will not help. You need a pump that can deliver more pressure, then a higher setting on the pressure switch will help.

Exactly right;most village type systems pump to a tower and the mains are feed by gravity from the tower.To get 150+PSI the system would have to be on the pump side;probably the case when long ,flat runs are needed or the need to pump uphill or to high rise type buildings.

 

[coldsteelva]

One of my duties with the government was review & approval of water systems. Big & small. I've seen pressures as high as 80psi. These, eventually, became such a PITA that measures were taken to cut it back to 60 or 65psi.

A system running 150psi would be a constant problem for both the owner of the system and the homeowners using the system.

Maintenance & repair costs alone would necessitate change. There are very few situations designed to handle 150psi. Firefighting equipment MIGHT fall into this category.

High pressure is not really a necessity for firefighting, that's why there is a fire engine/pumper - it draws in at main pressure and boosts it with PTO and valving to increase pressure in order to flow 1000s of gpm at specific pressures for distance.

"In an effort to make it easier for firefighters to know what a specific hydrant will supply, the National Fire Protection Agency (NFPA) recommends that fire departments and water districts follow a set standard of color-coding. Known as NFPA 291, it says fire hydrants using public water supply systems should be painted chrome yellow, and their tops and caps should indicate the available GPM. Below 500GPM should be red, 500-999 GPM should be orange, 1000-1499 GPM should be green, and 1500 GPM or more should be blue."

"GPM is only one of two factors of water supply. The other is pressure, rated in PSI (pounds per square inch). All hydrants are assumed to provide at least 20 psi. If it doesn’t, NFPA recommends that the rated pressure be stenciled on the top of the hydrant and on the caps. They also recommend this for extremely high pressured hydrants. Too much pressure can cause damage to the fire equipment if precautions aren’t taken."

 

[EddieWalker]

Something else to be concerned about with high water pressure readings is if you are getting a surge in your water line. Some older pumps will vary in how much pressure they put into the water mains and that surge will cause the water to move in both directions in the pipe. Highest levels will push the water outwards, but then the drop in pressure will suck the water backwards in the pipes. If you have an older meter, or a worn out water meter, or a defective water meter, you can get an extremly high water bill from water going through the meter on the high pressure surge, and then back out again on the low pressure drop. The meter reads the water going in, but never going out. An empty house with nobody in it can have thousands of gallons charged to it when this happens.

The guy in charge of my local water company told me this is fairly common in some areas and a huge revenue source for them. It's illegal and very hard to prove, but if you keep pushing them, they will cancel the bill and replace your meter. I know this from personal experience when I got a $600 bill for water usage in an empty house that I was flipping and I had the water turned off at the house, about 1,200 feet from the meter. They said that the pipe must be leaking, so I hired a plumber to do a pressure test of the pipe. The pipe was perfect. Then I found out about the surge in the water line, which they said didn't happen. I told them who I was talking to, and that he told me about the surge in water lines, that's when things changed. They never admitted to it, but the very next day I had a new meter installed and the water bill for the next month didn't show that I owed anything. The amount owed just disappeared.

 

[jaxs]

Something else to be concerned about with high water pressure readings is if you are getting a surge in your water line. Some older pumps will vary in how much pressure they put into the water mains and that surge will cause the water to move in both directions in the pipe. Highest levels will push the water outwards, but then the drop in pressure will suck the water backwards in the pipes. If you have an older meter, or a worn out water meter, or a defective water meter, you can get an extremly high water bill from water going through the meter on the high pressure surge, and then back out again on the low pressure drop. The meter reads the water going in, but never going out. An empty house with nobody in it can have thousands of gallons charged to it when this happens.

The guy in charge of my local water company told me this is fairly common in some areas and a huge revenue source for them. It's illegal and very hard to prove, but if you keep pushing them, they will cancel the bill and replace your meter. I know this from personal experience when I got a $600 bill for water usage in an empty house that I was flipping and I had the water turned off at the house, about 1,200 feet from the meter. They said that the pipe must be leaking, so I hired a plumber to do a pressure test of the pipe. The pipe was perfect. Then I found out about the surge in the water line, which they said didn't happen. I told them who I was talking to, and that he told me about the surge in water lines, that's when things changed. They never admitted to it, but the very next day I had a new meter installed and the water bill for the next month didn't show that I owed anything. The amount owed just disappeared.

So was the guy's name I Herd or was it Tha Said ? Both of them are guilty of spreading crap like that if people will listen.

 

[EddieWalker]

His name is Tom Vice. Last year he moved to the Atlanta area and is now running the water department in that area.

 

[EddieWalker]

So was the guy's name I Herd or was it Tha Said ? Both of them are guilty of spreading crap like that if people will listen.

You sound just like the head of that water department when I first approached him. Did you ever work in Whitehouse TX?

 

[kcflhrc]

I put a regulator in my house but my outside hydrant doesn't feed from the house and the pressure was crazy high. RWD put a new regulator at the meter and fixed the issue. I guess the outside hydrant tee's into the house line at some point. It was that way when we moved in 5 1/2 years ago.

 

[MossRoad]

Something else to be concerned about with high water pressure readings is if you are getting a surge in your water line. Some older pumps will vary in how much pressure they put into the water mains and that surge will cause the water to move in both directions in the pipe. Highest levels will push the water outwards, but then the drop in pressure will suck the water backwards in the pipes. If you have an older meter, or a worn out water meter, or a defective water meter, you can get an extremly high water bill from water going through the meter on the high pressure surge, and then back out again on the low pressure drop. The meter reads the water going in, but never going out. An empty house with nobody in it can have thousands of gallons charged to it when this happens.

The guy in charge of my local water company told me this is fairly common in some areas and a huge revenue source for them. It's illegal and very hard to prove, but if you keep pushing them, they will cancel the bill and replace your meter. I know this from personal experience when I got a $600 bill for water usage in an empty house that I was flipping and I had the water turned off at the house, about 1,200 feet from the meter. They said that the pipe must be leaking, so I hired a plumber to do a pressure test of the pipe. The pipe was perfect. Then I found out about the surge in the water line, which they said didn't happen. I told them who I was talking to, and that he told me about the surge in water lines, that's when things changed. They never admitted to it, but the very next day I had a new meter installed and the water bill for the next month didn't show that I owed anything. The amount owed just disappeared.

The only problem I have with that is a liquid cannot be compressed. If there's a pressure surge, where does the liquid go? Maybe there's an air bladder tank in the house, but those are rare on municipal water supplies, usually found on wells. Or maybe a HUGE slug of air in the pipes, but for the most part, it just can't happen because a liquid cannot be compressed.

 

[turnkey4099]

Good info, I hadn't really considered input pressure would effect output pressure but I don't fully understand how a PRV works. As soon as I get my pressure gauge back I will test my house pressure to see if it is still 70psi, if not I will add it to my scheduled checks like looking at HVAC filters.

Funny folks are thinking 150psi is high when 300psi is "normal" in some areas. Never know unless you ask and are willing to look outside your conceptions.

300psi is not normal for residential. That would be blowing fixtures throughout the house.

 

[turnkey4099]

The way we learned it from my SCUBA diving days we learned that we increased 1 atmosphere (14.7 PSI) per ever 33 feet of depth so that calculates to .445 PSI per foot. Both of our answers seem to be correct and a long way from 2.3 per foot.

Yeah. The rule of thumb I learned was 1/2lb/ft. Close enough for most uses.

 

[EddieWalker]

Yeah. The rule of thumb I learned was 1/2lb/ft. Close enough for most uses.

The only problem I have with that is a liquid cannot be compressed. If there's a pressure surge, where does the liquid go? Maybe there's an air bladder tank in the house, but those are rare on municipal water supplies, usually found on wells. Or maybe a HUGE slug of air in the pipes, but for the most part, it just can't happen because a liquid cannot be compressed.

I should have asked, but I always assumed that the pipes themselves flexed, or bulged or moved enough for this to happen. Eventually this leads to failure of the pipe.

 

[MossRoad]

It couldn't move enough to be a significant flow through a meter. Think about how small of an area is deformed when a water pipe freezes and bursts. It's not even 1/16 of an inch. Not even 1/4 a teaspoon sized deformation before the pipe cracks.

 

[LittleBill21]

comments are a bit interesting to me. city water pressure here is 150psi standard, pressure reducers are sold everywhere including lowes and in stock.

when the reducers go, generally the water heaters blow the pressure relieve valve. pretty common occurrence.

and our water meters have back flow preventers to stop contamination so not sure how the surge water bill happened..

 

[MossRoad]

Eddie,
Here you go. I started poking around and found a guy that has a meter that spins forward and backward...

Water Meter spins forwards and backwards continuously - DoItYourself.com Community Forums

He even posted a video of it.

The discussion mentions a water heater and an expansion tank.

 

[Larry Caldwell]

Something else to be concerned about with high water pressure readings is if you are getting a surge in your water line. Some older pumps will vary in how much pressure they put into the water mains and that surge will cause the water to move in both directions in the pipe. Highest levels will push the water outwards, but then the drop in pressure will suck the water backwards in the pipes. If you have an older meter, or a worn out water meter, or a defective water meter, you can get an extremly high water bill from water going through the meter on the high pressure surge, and then back out again on the low pressure drop. The meter reads the water going in, but never going out. An empty house with nobody in it can have thousands of gallons charged to it when this happens.

The guy in charge of my local water company told me this is fairly common in some areas and a huge revenue source for them. It's illegal and very hard to prove, but if you keep pushing them, they will cancel the bill and replace your meter. I know this from personal experience when I got a $600 bill for water usage in an empty house that I was flipping and I had the water turned off at the house, about 1,200 feet from the meter. They said that the pipe must be leaking, so I hired a plumber to do a pressure test of the pipe. The pipe was perfect. Then I found out about the surge in the water line, which they said didn't happen. I told them who I was talking to, and that he told me about the surge in water lines, that's when things changed. They never admitted to it, but the very next day I had a new meter installed and the water bill for the next month didn't show that I owed anything. The amount owed just disappeared.

That's hard to believe, since all municipal water systems require back check valves to prevent contamination of their system by private lines. The only way water could flow backwards is if the check valve was defective, and you are required to test and recertify the check valve annually.

 

[MossRoad]

That's hard to believe, since all municipal water systems require back check valves to prevent contamination of their system by private lines. The only way water could flow backwards is if the check valve was defective, and you are required to test and recertify the check valve annually.

I lived on city water for 34 years. No one ever checked or certified anything from the city water department. :laughing:

 

[WM75Guy]

That's hard to believe, since all municipal water systems require back check valves to prevent contamination of their system by private lines. The only way water could flow backwards is if the check valve was defective, and you are required to test and recertify the check valve annually.

The requirement for a backflow preventer varies based on location. I was a fire and building inspector for 22 years and did inspections on backflow preventer installations. In Texas you see backflow preventers on lines feeding industrial sites, irrigation lines, and fire sprinkler lines. The meter is not a backflow preventer so most residential and commercial customers do not have backflow preventers on their line, unless they have irrigation or fire sprinklers connected to the main line.

Since sewage fees are based on water usage most customers now have a separate line with backflow prevention and meter for irrigation and fire sprinklers. Sewage fees are usually calculated on Dec, Jan, and Feb water usage. Having 2 separate meters is usually worth it to get an accurate calculation, even after having to pay a minimum meter fee each month. With all the regulations now for handling wastewater, sewage costs can now be higher than the cost of the water. I know of one city that was facing tremendous cost to dispose of treated wastewater so they built a municipal golf course near the sewer plant and used the treated wastewater to water the course. Since they didn't have to pay for the water the golf course made money as well.

 

[Tractor Seabee]

The pressure reducer is normally in the meter vault out by the street. I have never seen one inside a house. It's not a hardware store item. Try a plumbing supply house.

The big box stores and small HDW chains all stock them here. Wish I had you all's problem with too much. I am lucky to have 40 PSI on a municipal. Works for me though. I piped all my landscape irrigation in 1" pipe with equalizing loop lines. Irrigation valves are made to work at 40 PSI. Conversely I have never seen a PRV at the meter, always in the building along with the BFP. Irrigation would be at the valve manifold.

Do not keep the PRV gauge under pressure, it will shorten its accurate life. Have valves both sides and a union so it can be removed easy for maintenance and repair. They do not last forever. Some water system providers require PRVs and BFPs on new construction as well as some local codes.

Ron