Complex machine

[n4msl]

I recently took delivery of a DK40SE-HST and am amazed at the complexity of this tractor. There are few direct mechanical connections like in my old MF 1020. Everything is operated by cables or electrical solenoids. This, to me, portends many future problems with corroded electrical contacts, switches, electronic boxes, etc and it seems that it would be a troubleshooting nightmare. If the dash display ever goes down I might be tempted to junk the whole tractor rather than try to figure what is wrong. Have I lost contact with modern tractors? Are all tractors this complex these days?

 

[VictorW]

I bought my CK30hst six years ago and was also surprised at the apparent modern designing of the systems. But then I was updating from a 1948 Ford 8N. Times have changed just like with road vehicles. Luckily these tractors can still be worked on by anyone who has some mechanical ability or experience and the shop manual does help even though it's not like the Motor's, Chilton, or Hayes manuals. From what has been posted prior, a small computer for the engine is coming to deal with emision requirements.

 

[IndyIan]

I recently took delivery of a DK40SE-HST and am amazed at the complexity of this tractor. There are few direct mechanical connections like in my old MF 1020. Everything is operated by cables or electrical solenoids. This, to me, portends many future problems with corroded electrical contacts, switches, electronic boxes, etc and it seems that it would be a troubleshooting nightmare. If the dash display ever goes down I might be tempted to junk the whole tractor rather than try to figure what is wrong. Have I lost contact with modern tractors? Are all tractors this complex these days?

I think if you keep the tractor under cover it should go a long way to keeping the electronics happy. The only really important electronic doo-dads are the glow plugs, 4wd engagement, and PTO engagement. I don't really worry about the rest. If push comes to shove I think wiring all 3 of these to simple switches on the dash isn't rocket science. Go get the service manual from the dealer, the wiring diagrams aren't all that scary and it gives you a trouble shooting guide.
My neighbor's $150k JD is a different beast, the amount of electronics on that kept a tech from the dealership busy for a couple days in the middle of hay season checking connections with cable bundles as thick as your arm running a few different places...

 

[ritcheyvs]

I have to agree with IndyIan. The electrics are pretty elementary; nothing like a current-vintage car. Assuming you can use a multimeter, the hardest part of electrical troubleshooting is physically locating the part of interest. Also, as other posts make clear, the "all mechanical" approach is not foolproof. The only electrical problem (so far) in my 2006 DK4S5 was accumulated dust/dirt in the ignition switch which produced intermittent starting (glow) problems. I can't speak to the HST models but I consider my machine to be pretty rugged, including the electrics, but my instrument panel is just idiot lights and tach.

 

[k0ua]

n4msl Aw c'mon now. It isn't all that bad, have you checked into your rig lately? There have been some innovations there too in the last 20 years. Everything is more complex than it was. and while there is a microcontroller for the dash, It is no where near as complex as the average car. Sure I am hoping everything keeps on working correctly, and gives no problems too. Is it as simple as my dads 1949 Super A? No, but it does a heck of a lot more too!

73

James K0UA

 

[CJONE]

N4 like the others are stating these units have simple switches and wireing so don't fret too much about it. That is one of the main reason I purchased my tractor. Modern cab and convienance with out the computers. Wait for a year or so when the emmissions crap comes out, then you will see problems and high fuel use. CJ

 

[Coyote machine]

All tractors are built this way regardless of brand name. They're actually real simple with a few relays, switches and built in timers, etc. The parts are made to be replaced if defective, not repaired, which keeps cost down for initial purchase and consequent repair(s). Most household appliances have more electronics than a tractor, such as, dishwashers, refrigerators, washer/dryers, microwaves, etc. Its nothing to be concerned about.

Tier 4 emissions requirements will not cause high fuel consumption. It will however reduce particulate emissions as intended.

 

[dennis52]

You aren't wrong; some people tend to get seduced by the bells and whistles, until they fail.
What I liked about my new Kioti was that it had the same basic design as my 30 year old Kubota. For me,the fewer solenoids and switches, the better.

 

[CJONE]

Tier 4 emissions requirements will not cause high fuel consumption. It will however reduce particulate emissions as intended.[/QUOTE]

So far that has not proved true. The units that meet the spec either have to do it with urea or for the bigger stuff regen cats. OR they don't make enough USEABLE power to speak of. Units that run a set rpm have been ok but anything that varies rpm like well service rigs have been a joke. JMHO and experience. CJ

 

[Coyote machine]

So far that has not proved true. The units that meet the spec either have to do it with urea or for the bigger stuff regen cats. OR they don't make enough USEABLE power to speak of. Units that run a set rpm have been ok but anything that varies rpm like well service rigs have been a joke. JMHO and experience. CJ

I thought we were/are discussing tractors?:confused2:
I can't comment on well service rigs, or other specialty rigs.
Is there documented proof of higher fuel consumption, or is that just anecdotal evidence?

 

[CJONE]

I thought we were/are discussing tractors?:confused2:
I can't comment on well service rigs, or other specialty rigs.
Is there documented proof of higher fuel consumption, or is that just anecdotal evidence?

They are powered by diesel engines correct? Then they will ALL have to meet tier 4 spec or higher. The only engine so far
that has done well with this that I have PROOF of [records] has been Cummins and they lost a little. Look at ALL the pickup diesels have any of them
gained mileage? No they have all lost with the added emmissions. Within the last 2 months or so I have sold 8 or more Diesel power
units from 24HP Kubotas to a 175 HP Cummins and the Cummins has to be criticle on fuel useage. The next 175 HP unit will cost
in the neighborhood of 5K more because of emmissions and [just a educated guess at 10% MORE fuel use] But I can let you know
because I will have to increase the fuel tank size to get a 24 hour run out of it. As far as the big HP stuff I work on it alot and I have
trouble getting enough off idle hp to run my Hydrostats and pumps with the new tier 4+ stuff. I also quoted 2 pump packages and had
to go to 600 HP engines where 550 HP engines used to do the job, the only difference, emmissions.
Like I have said before I will NOT comment on something unless I have experience with it.
You called me out, so how about your proof?
CJ

 

[n4msl]

I have since checked other tractors and found them all to be far more complex than what I am familiar with. Yes, I know that all machinery these days is high-tech and complicated, but I can't visualize a modern tractor operating for 50 years with few problems like an old 8N Ford. To me, complexity equals trouble at some point. In addition, I fear that the hoses and wiring underneath will be ripped off or otherwise damaged by projecting roots, fallen limbs, rocks etc. that the old MF didn't even notice. Perhaps I'll start bush hogging in reverse to avoid running over those two inch diameter trees.

Of course I will adapt to the new and will probably be able to successfully troubleshoot and repair the new as I did the old, but I'll fondly remember the dirt simple MF as I drag out the multimeter and start pulling apart wire bundles and hunting for black boxes.

 

[DK35vince]

The Kioti DS 4110 would have been a much less complex design if thats what your prefer.

 

[Coyote machine]

They are powered by diesel engines correct? Then they will ALL have to meet tier 4 spec or higher. The only engine so far
that has done well with this that I have PROOF of [records] has been Cummins and they lost a little. Look at ALL the pickup diesels have any of them
gained mileage? No they have all lost with the added emmissions. Within the last 2 months or so I have sold 8 or more Diesel power
units from 24HP Kubotas to a 175 HP Cummins and the Cummins has to be criticle on fuel useage. The next 175 HP unit will cost
in the neighborhood of 5K more because of emmissions and [just a educated guess at 10% MORE fuel use] But I can let you know
because I will have to increase the fuel tank size to get a 24 hour run out of it. As far as the big HP stuff I work on it alot and I have
trouble getting enough off idle hp to run my Hydrostats and pumps with the new tier 4+ stuff. I also quoted 2 pump packages and had
to go to 600 HP engines where 550 HP engines used to do the job, the only difference, emmissions.
Like I have said before I will NOT comment on something unless I have experience with it.
You called me out, so how about your proof?
CJ

I never said I have proof, and I didn't 'call you out'; I asked a question as to whether there is documented evidence for what you claimed to be the case. You provided what you know, and that's fine. Seems to me, that like all other emissions issues the roll-out ends up being ugly, and the fix comes after problems are found, if ever.

 

[CJONE]

I never said I have proof, and I didn't 'call you out'; I asked a question as to whether there is documented evidence for what you claimed to be the case. You provided what you know, and that's fine. Seems to me, that like all other emissions issues the roll-out ends up being ugly, and the fix comes after problems are found, if ever.

Sorry, I get in a bad mind set sometimes having to defend myself to people who take cheap shots and have no idea what they are talking about. You obviously are not one of them. My Cummins rep was in Friday and He does not have any good news except they are working with the new requirements and seem to have a handle on them but it won't be cheap $$$. So far no real fixes just bandaids to make the govenment happy. I still don't know how they figure burning more fuel = eco friendly. In Caterpillars case they have lost almost 1/2 of their mileage in some cases, sad. I don't know 100% if it is true but rumor has it that they are pulling out of the heavy truck market because of emissions. CJ