Comparing Botas with LS rebranded (Case)

[scesnick]

I just have to say something here about my experience with Messicks. I have to say that they are THE best dealer i have ever dealt with. They went above and beyond when i bought my tractor from them last year. They delivered my tractor 3 hours away the very next day after a major blizzard. The roads were terrible but they new i was in dire straights ( my diriveway is 2.5 miles long and I was snowed in) They could have said no way, the roads are horrible, and that would have been understandable, but they didn't.

Messicks has a reputation in our region as a premier dealership that stands by their products and they know what they are talking about. If they were to recommend something to me, I would take that to the bank. But, that is just my opinion.

 

[wampum]

I just have to say something here about my experience with Messicks. I have to say that they are THE best dealer I have ever dealt with. They went above and beyond when I bought my tractor from them last year. They delivered my tractor 3 hours away the very next day after a major blizzard. The roads were terrible but they new i was in dire straights ( my diriveway is 2.5 miles long and I was snowed in) They could have said no way, the roads are horrible, and that would have been understandable, but they didn't.

Messicks has a reputation in our region as a premier dealership that stands by their products and they know what they are talking about. If they were to recommend something to me, I would take that to the bank. But, that is just my opinion.

That is a fare statement,I also have had a good experience with the dealer I have dealt with. But I will always have an open mind about any dealer. I am now in the market for a new cab tractor. I will give the dealer I dealt with a fare chance,but if I can get a better deal from another dealer I will take it. I am not talking a couple of hundred dollars,but I would have to have an offer a couple of thousand less. I owe no dealer nothing,it is their job to win my business. This salesman from Messicks has completely turned me off,I would not buy from Messicks, unless it was an exceptional deal. If I found out that the guy on this site was the salesman I would not deal with him for any price,I would just walk away.

20 years ago kubota ruled the small CUT segment. Today there is just so many other options. I have been to literally dozens of dealers. Last summer I was out east visiting my son and even stopped at Messicks,I was not that impressed.
Toyota and Honda have had a good reputation for making good cars for some time. The last couple of years they have slipped. The Korean Hyundai according to consumer reports and other sources has bested Toyota and Honda in many ways,Many say it is the best car out there passing the Japanese cars.
I happen to also believe that Kubota has the reputation as do Toyota and Honda. But like Hyundai I believe LS has a better tractor then Kubota or New Holland and Deere.The reputation will come. I have looked at all of the top brands,I have read the specs,I have tested them. Dollar for Dollar pound for pound,the LS tops them all. Also LS has a 5 year warranty,You just get so much more for your money,The Kubotas in the same class look so much cheaper and are routinely hundreds and in some cases over a thousand pounds lighter. The trannys are heavier often having 12 and 16 speeds compared to 8.Right now you can deal with an LS dealer,a Kubota dealer is harder to deal with.The work station is more comfortable and roomier.
I believe that Kubota will have to get off their butts and start making a better tractor,simply because LS is going to push them hard. LS will catch them and pass them as long as Kubota keeps making the over priced product they are selling right now.

 

[Gary Fowler]

X 2 Wampum. Reputation only gets you so far. Sooner or later poor quality and design is going to fail to attract a customer and your reputation will then go down the drain. Lots of companies are still trying to live on there old reputations (Maytag comes to mind) and sooner than later the word gets out that their quality is no longer there. I read a lot of posts here where complaints against their brand quality are talked about but owners still swear by the name. Many Kubota owners talk about how their tractors wont come out of 4 wd till the lift the front axle with the FEL. What kind of design is that? What if you didnt have a FEL, would you have to jack up your tractor each time you wanted to shift from 4WD to 2WD. Kubota dealers and corporation seem to have a deaf ear to complaints about their design. I have recently bought a used RTV 900 and have read the whole ATV forum and saw complaint after complaint where folks have had issues with getting minor issues addressed from gas tanks leaking to shift levers breaking, not being able to shift without killing the engine, no power etc and their dealers ignoring them and telling them it is normal for their machine. It has taken Kubota 7 years to fix many of the design issues and a lot of them were discovered by the early owners experimenting on their own to fix the problems then posting the solutions on this forum and others to get the dealers to fix a simple design problem. That kind of action does not win customers.
I dont really know how LS will be on that issue, since I havent had any problems to deal with.

 

[Gary Fowler]

Hey HoustonScott; When I started tractor shopping, I was looking for a 50+ HP tractor with a cab. The U 5030 was the LS model I started looking at. I got such a good price on the LS brand that I came home with a P 7010C which was way more tractor than I needed, but it was in stock, had a cab, handled easily and for the price or a 50 HP MF 1652 with Cab, I got 72 HP. Most of my work with it I just high idle around on it at about 1700-1800 RPM and it has more power than I need but it sure sips the fuel at that speed. I just have to be careful with using the Cat 1 equipment with it because I can fold that stuff up without even hearing the governors open up. Guess I have to spent several thousand more now to upgrade my equipment. I sure need a larger bushhog for the HP although for just my acreage I could mow it with my 52" ZTR mower. Have to help my brother in law though, cant let him have all the fun.

 

[scesnick]

Everyone seems to have an opinion on each brand. I personally bought a Kubota MX 5100 from Messicks. I have used it to its limits with zero issues. I think how a dealer treats its customers has a huge influence on the reputation of the brand tractor they sell.

For example, My Kubota showed up with R-4 tires. I was not thrilled with that but I didn't specify that I wanted Ag tires but i had to take delivery to dig my family out of the house from the 4ft. of snow we got hammered with in 3 days. I called them and asked what it would cost me in the spring to get the Ag's put on. they said "zero". I told them by that time i would have 100+ hours on the R-4 tires. Messicks said "No problem". The came and picked up my tractor (3 hours one way) switched out the R-4's for New Ag's and even split the cost to fill the rear tires. They then returned my tractor within a week.
This whole experience makes me 100% satisfied with my Kubota thanks to a great dealer...

 

[gregsm33]

Welcome to all new LS owners. I hope you all have fun and great luck with your new purchases. Just a tidbit info for comparison shoppers out there. The 70hp New Holland tractor (Canadian model anyway) has 4 cylinder Iveco diesel, exact same engine as LS 7010, loader has approx. 900lb lower lift rating and no rear remotes and 1 year warranty and at least $10000 more (December 2009).

When I went to local NH dealer he said that comparing NH to LS is like a cadillac versus a VW. Well I guess he didn't have his facts straight. Salesman never called me back from NH dealer with a firm price, I had already made up my mind by then to buy LS but it is funny now that the NH dealer will be selling LS tractors with New Holland stickers on them.

 

[scesnick]

When I went to local NH dealer he said that comparing NH to LS is like a cadillac versus a VW. Well I guess he didn't have his facts straight. .

Ha,,, as a VW fan I take exception when VW is referred to as second rate. That "Cadillac" he is referring to must be a heck of a vehicle since VW designed and developed the most expensive and fasted car in the world. ( Bugatti Veyron)

 

[Gary Fowler]

I dont think NH should badmouth any manufacturer especially since they have used just about every manufacturer that has a facility outside the USA to make their tractors at one time or another. That is typically salesman talk as most of them barely know how to raise the hood and start the engine on the tractors that they are selling. If it isnt in the brochure, they dont know about it. When you get one that will tell you either they dont know about the other brand or admit that they make a good tractor, then you can talk to them. They need to sell their brand and their service not try to get a sale by telling folks the other brands are inferior. TOO MANY of them are made by the same company now to be bad mouthing the builder. Even if it is designed a little differently, the guys putting them together make the quality of a tractor as long as their blueprint used the latest technology in engines and metallurgy if will perform the function per design. Everyone seems to make a little different layout of form and function and these all appeal to different folks in different ways. Personally my choice was based on layout of controls and seating, hydraulics and amenities. There are lots of choices in motors etc from different companies and I dont see a lot of difference in them. I dont particularly like the MF 1950s model Perkins engine that they have went to and think they could do better than that, but that technology lasted a long time in the MF 135 series, so who is to say it isnt good enough for today. Everyone is looking to pinch a few pennies here and there to make more profit. I guess Perkins engines got too greedy and wanted more money or something. Rambling again. So I will shut up.
I will say one other thing, I dont think it is a good idea to put all the computer controls and electric switch stuff on a tractor. Give me a good ole mechanical linkage anytime rather than a solenoid to engage something that engages a hydraulic something that moves something else sure makes it hard to fix and prone to failure.

 

[houstonscott]

Thanks for the welcome. The U5030 will come from RCO tractors outside of Austin. It's my son's property, well they haven't closed yet so the tractor will come after closing. He and I have been looking at properties for more than a year and during that time I have been studying tractors. Never had one except for my brother-in-law has a 37hp Kubota HST on 80 acres in Idaho, seems nice. A friend of mine here in Houston has some acres and likes his Kubota too. I being a car guy, know there is a difference between brands and there must be a difference between tractors. I came to the conclusion that the new MF1600 series built by Izeki for MF was the best compact tractor. Then I found LS and began to research that brand including TractorByNet posts. Like everyone says match you tractor to the property and the job and that's what we did, my son settled on a property larger than I thought, 55 acres. The ground is all tillable soil not what I expected. Hey operations are in the mix now too. I had been telling him about the LS and they looked very nice on paper. We went and looked and I was impressed with fit and finish and design, every bit the MF was, I think the new modern factories are making the difference, in auto manufacture they build a factor for each new model. We needed at least 50hp to run all the small hey equipment. What the pricing on the LS did was put us in the utility cat. and out of the compact cat. The U-series is almost 1000lbs above a MF 1652/5/60. We got 16 speed transmission and a cat II lift, and enough power to do the job. We just got more tractor for less money. I think that will change as LS gets noticed. I researched the engine and found the S4s is in all kinds of industrial equipment all over the world, a real workhorse. The warranty is peace of mind but I think we made a good buy. Some tech questions because I don't have manual yet. Does the S4s have EGR? Is it a 4 value head? Is the head AL. Is this a common rail design? Is it a twin cam? How many hours before first oil change? What oil do they recommend? Do you change out gear oil at first service too? Anyone use bio in the LS and what does the book say? Is there PCI? This should get things going. I'm into diesel.

HS

 

[Gary Fowler]

I cant help you much on the engine questions. My P7010C has an IVECO engine.

 

[wampum]

Everyone seems to have an opinion on each brand. I personally bought a Kubota MX 5100 from Messicks. I have used it to its limits with zero issues. I think how a dealer treats its customers has a huge influence on the reputation of the brand tractor they sell.

For example, My Kubota showed up with R-4 tires. I was not thrilled with that but I didn't specify that I wanted Ag tires but i had to take delivery to dig my family out of the house from the 4ft. of snow we got hammered with in 3 days. I called them and asked what it would cost me in the spring to get the Ag's put on. they said "zero". I told them by that time i would have 100+ hours on the R-4 tires. Messicks said "No problem". The came and picked up my tractor (3 hours one way) switched out the R-4's for New Ag's and even split the cost to fill the rear tires. They then returned my tractor within a week.
This whole experience makes me 100% satisfied with my Kubota thanks to a great dealer...

Having owned tractors most of my adult life,and born and raised on a farm where I learned to drive a John Deere "A" at about 8 years old. I knew exactly what tires I wanted going in and told them.
Most dealers I have dealt with will bend over backwards to make you happy,that is just good business.It is true however that Deere and Kubota dealers can do this easier then most other dealers. After all you have just spent thousands more for their product,so they have more profit margin to play with. At times they seem to be really treating you good when in reality if they were treating you well they would have given you a better deal in the beginning.
The truth sadly is that you could have gotten a lot more tractor for less then you paid for the Kubota. You actually could have bought the AG tires with extra rims and had both with the money you could have saved buying the LS.
I am not bashing your Kubota,if you are happy with it great its a good machine. All I am saying is the pendulum is swinging and companies like LS have caught Kubota and are passing them and selling more tractor for less money.
I grew up I was a Pontiac man,I loved Pontiacs. About 1972 I started to realize that Pontiacs,where just Chevy clones,and where not of very good quality.This in my opinion is what is happening to the big 3 tractors. They are living on their reputation and selling a cheaper product at a high price. Eventually it will catch up to them.

 

[LittleBlueTractor]

Some tech questions because I don't have manual yet. Does the S4s have EGR? Is it a 4 value head? Is the head AL. Is this a common rail design? Is it a twin cam? How many hours before first oil change? What oil do they recommend? Do you change out gear oil at first service too? Anyone use bio in the LS and what does the book say? Is there PCI? This should get things going. I'm into diesel.

HS

I don't know nuthin' about no diesels but maybe this will help:

http://www.mitsubishi-engine.com/documents/brochures/SmallIndustrial/mhi small engine brochure.pdf

I was able to find complete Mitsubishi SL engine manual on-line after much searching. Also, I got my dealer to order me the S3010 Service manual from LS Tractor USA for around $75 plus shipping. It came in a loose-leaf binder so I bound it in something more substantial to keep from accidentally pulling out the pages. It was worth the money to me. I don't have the user's manual with me but as I remember the first change of both the engine oil and hydraulic fluid is at 50 hours. Can't remember the specs on the engine oil, but remember well that the hydraulic fluid is Conoco PowerTran at about $120 per 5 gal. can. Still wondering if I should go with it something cheaper. At least the hydraulic fluid capacity on the S3010 is only 9 gal. so it wouldn't kill me. It's just hard for me to spend that kind of money if I can't figure out if it really necessary. I called the dealer and it's not what they use if they do the service.

 

[rocknrod]

... I researched the engine and found the S4s ... S4s have EGR? Is it a 4 value head? Is the head AL. Is this a common rail design? Is it a twin cam? How many hours before first oil change? What oil do they recommend? Do you change out gear oil at first service too? Anyone use bio in the LS and what does the book say? Is there PCI? This should get things going. I'm into diesel.

HS

I researched the engine for my R4010:
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/ls-tractors/192544-sticky-needed.html
I think if you do the same, we should make a maintenance sticky.

 

[LittleBlueTractor]

Some tech questions because I don't have manual yet. Does the S4s have EGR? Is it a 4 value head? Is the head AL. Is this a common rail design? Is it a twin cam? How many hours before first oil change? What oil do they recommend? Do you change out gear oil at first service too? Anyone use bio in the LS and what does the book say? Is there PCI? This should get things going. I'm into diesel.

HS

Same song, second verse:

http://pdfservicemanual.com/download/http://www.mhimee.nl/action/getEngineAttachment?id=183

 

[houstonscott]

Wow great information. Looks like the S4s is old straight forward diesel. What does that mean. Well in short it's not a new high pressure diesel like in German cars. It has a governor and high compression. The pistons are of new design and are most of the reason for low fuel use. I can't see if there is EGR but it looks likes to me there is no EGR. I many ways this is good, no electronic's to fail and no major pollution stuff to worry about. What you didn't get. Much more power and economy. What did we get, an engine that will run along time, and I see know reason why bio-diesel would be a problem if you want to run that in some percentage. You will not have to run the very expensive oils for ESP diesels.

HS

 

[slowzuki]

You are talking about the economy NH model, I'm not up on the new numbering system but they make at least 4 NH 70 hp models so its a bit hard to make a blanket statement. Most NH models are like Cadillac's in comparison but not all. Just like Kubota make a low cost L series and a couple of low price M series.

The 70hp New Holland tractor (Canadian model anyway) has 4 cylinder Iveco diesel, exact same engine as LS 7010, loader has approx. 900lb lower lift rating and no rear remotes and 1 year warranty and at least $10000 more (December 2009).

When I went to local NH dealer he said that comparing NH to LS is like a cadillac versus a VW. Well I guess he didn't have his facts straight. Salesman never called me back from NH dealer with a firm price, I had already made up my mind by then to buy LS but it is funny now that the NH dealer will be selling LS tractors with New Holland stickers on them.

 

[scesnick]

The truth sadly is that you could have gotten a lot more tractor for less then you paid for the Kubota. You actually could have bought the AG tires with extra rims and had both with the money you could have saved buying the LS.
I am not bashing your Kubota,if you are happy with it great its a good machine. All I am saying is the pendulum is swinging and companies like LS have caught Kubota and are passing them and selling more tractor for less money.
They are living on their reputation and selling a cheaper product at a high price. Eventually it will catch up to them.

Actually, I did do my homework before buying. I looked at the Montana, JD, Mahindra and a few others. I was fully ready to buy the Mihindra 4530 but they were out of stock and couldn't get me one for 3 weeks. Then I looked at the Kubota on a whim. Turns out the Kubota had 5 more HP, was turbo'd and was $3,500 cheaper than the Mahindra.
I know everyone has their opions about which tractor is the best. But, I don't think i will have a problem re selling my Kubota if I ever decide to sell..

 

[Gary Fowler]

I will let my heirs worry about selling (or not)my LS. It will still be on the farm when I am gone I'm sure. If I dont retire soon so I can actually use it a bit more, it may still have the new smell in the cab.

To change the subject a bit without starting a new thread, can anyone comment on their breakin period requirements. On the P7010, it stated to break it in under full load, dont let it idle for long periods and vary the speed if I remember all of the wording. It kinda surprised me that it didnt want you to go easy on it for the first few hours although every new tractor we bought when I was growing up, we hooked to as big a disc as it would pull and went to work with it, didnt baby them at all and they all lasted pretty well into the 10s of thousands of hours and still ran well. We only traded up in HP not because they quit running.

 

[wampum]

Actually, I did do my homework before buying. I looked at the Montana, JD, Mahindra and a few others. I was fully ready to buy the Mihindra 4530 but they were out of stock and couldn't get me one for 3 weeks. Then I looked at the Kubota on a whim. Turns out the Kubota had 5 more HP, was turbo'd and was $3,500 cheaper than the Mahindra.
I know everyone has their opions about which tractor is the best. But, I don't think i will have a problem re selling my Kubota if I ever decide to sell..

I also looked hard at the Mahindra 4530,got a price of exactly $20,000.00.I agree with you that right now the Kubota has a better resale,along with the Deere. I look for that to change as time goes on. Resale was probably at the bottom of my list. I turn 63 this year and have no intention of selling my tractor before they put dirt on me.I don't care what it brings after I am gone.

I am cheap,I'll admit that,Kubota makes a good tractor,Deere under 50 hp to me is over rated. I also like my tractor, I am glad you like yours. But for the money I feel I got just as good a tractor as the Kubota for thousands less and 50 HP with out the turbo. Which I like,because the turbo to me is just something else to go wrong.I also got draft and duel remotes for no extra. I also did not buy the Mahindra.

 

[dgl24087]

Just a tidbit info for comparison shoppers out there. The 70hp New Holland tractor (Canadian model anyway) has 4 cylinder Iveco diesel, exact same engine as LS 7010

NH has Iveco engines because Iveco is a division of Fiat, who also happens to own CNH.