Clutch Noise

[DavesTractor]

Interesting and this is a just a shot in the dark. Is there a pilot "Bearing" or a pilot "Bushing" on the end of the crankshaft? A worn or "dry" bushing could produce that type of noise, especially with elevated rpm's which also might cause the input shaft to rotate out of center. But I would think you would feel that somehow in the clutch pedal.

You might be on to something. I have a 90 HP Massey I use to mow, and it made all sorts of racket when engaging the PTO clutch, and it was a shot pilot bearing. We went ahead and did the clutch, pilot, TO, surfaced the flywheel etc, but the noise was the pilot bearing.

Surely the shop replaced the pilot and surfaced the flywheel on this Branson.

 

[blueriver]

Surely the shop replaced the pilot and surfaced the flywheel on this Branson.

No they did not ... What they did do was the clutch, pressure plate and the TO bearing.

I am expecting to hear from them today ... Monday they stated there is an "inspection Plate" cover to remove and look things over. I plan to be there when they split this unit and ask alot of questions.

You guys have brought up some good concerns ... thanks.

 

[Zork]

Assuming it is a bearing or bushing. I hate to say it because I was once out in the field but here goes. If the pilot bearing or bushing wasn't replaced I think the shop should eat the job; they are the professionals and should know better. If you worked that tractor for a year (assuming one year warranty) unfortunately its on you and next time anyone has a clutch replaced he should request those parts be replaced; but you aren't the pro- they are. Many times I did not replace either after an inspection of the part and I "always" lubed the bushing and that was the gamble "I took" and usually because the part couldn't be purchased quickly. I later went to the practice of replacing them regardless because it is such a terrible risk if you are wrong and you develop problems and then I'd have to eat the labor during the "come-back".

 

[blueriver]

Assuming it is a bearing or bushing. I hate to say it because I was once out in the field but here goes. If the pilot bearing or bushing wasn't replaced I think the shop should eat the job; they are the professionals and should know better. If you worked that tractor for a year (assuming one year warranty) unfortunately its on you and next time anyone has a clutch replaced he should request those parts be replaced; but you aren't the pro- they are. Many times I did not replace either after an inspection of the part and I "always" lubed the bushing and that was the gamble "I took" and usually because the part couldn't be purchased quickly. I later went to the practice of replacing them regardless because it is such a terrible risk if you are wrong and you develop problems and then I'd have to eat the labor during the "come-back".

They ordered the throw out bearing from Branson today and should be the first of next week when they split her again.

I asked about the Pilot Bearing and he told me on the phone just minutes ago to look at my Invoice from last time it was in.... its on the invoive as "Bush" and cost $10.44 .... Soooo I was mistaken about that ... he is telling me he doesn't believe that is an issue. As for the flywheel, he says it was excellent and didn't need surfacing.

Tell me what concerns I should be sharing with them ... obviously there is a reason the bearing failed... and as they have stated they need to find out why it failed and address that.

So far because this was just done they have agreed that anything related to the clutch will be at their cost. It was Mid March when they did the work ... I only used it a few hrs in April and then went to the hay field with it and I'm thinking with about 50 hrs on the new clutch is when it stopped shifting and the first call was to them ... so it went on record at that time.

At least at this time they are cooperating very nicely with me.

 

[Zork]

They ordered the throw out bearing from Branson today and should be the first of next week when they split her again.

I asked about the Pilot Bearing and he told me on the phone just minutes ago to look at my Invoice from last time it was in.... its on the invoive as "Bush" and cost $10.44 .... Soooo I was mistaken about that ... he is telling me he doesn't believe that is an issue. [Zork- A pilot bushing and bearing can be dry and cause noise or be so worn (bushing) that it causes the clutch disc to not rotate true and crack the disc or cause it not fully disengage from the pressure plate/ flywheel (drag); of course if you have a disintegrated pilot bearing some of that debris can get lodged in the disc/plate/flywheel area. Additionally, I would think that a worn bushing could cause transmission input shaft seal leakage, depending on the softness of the seal and how much the shaft depends on the bearing for support.]

As for the flywheel, he says it was excellent and didn't need surfacing. [Zork-That's fine, some shops resurface flywheels whether they need it or not.]

Tell me what concerns I should be sharing with them ... obviously there is a reason the bearing failed... and as they have stated they need to find out why it failed and address that. [Zork- My understanding is they haven't taken it apart yet, so its still an "educated" guess right now. A bearing can fail due to manufacture defects, handling (i.e. dropping/ improper mounting or placement on/in fork area) usually placement doesn't affect the bearing but it does effect the operation of the clutch and could damage the pressure plate if a wait and see attitude was taken and it ran for long period of time. Riding the clutch can prematurely wear (fail) the throw-out bearing as well. Best bet is for them to try and diagnose it first while it was running then take it apart and see (WHA'S UP!!! (a little comic relief), lol)
So far because this was just done they have agreed that anything related to the clutch will be at their cost. [Zork- Fair enough and worthy of compliments. The term t��he clutch should apply to the entire clutch job. Its not your fault. If the mechanic makes a mistake or if the part fails because you paid them for their expertise to correct an initial shift problem (assumed). I did do a clutch job on a large 4WD truck once and when I was finished it did not disengage or shift properly and I explained to the owner that if it didnt clear up to come back and we would replace it. It did clear up and the customer was satisfied. I guess the initial tolerances whether clutch disc; rivet or pressure plate was off and after some wear it cleared up. I was very glad because I wasnot looking forward to taking that apart again.]
It was Mid March when they did the work ... I only used it a few hrs in April and then went to the hay field with it and I'm thinking with about 50 hrs on the new clutch is when it stopped shifting and the first call was to them ... so it went on record at that time. [Zork- Keep in mind that once the equipment leaves a shop the owner can do anything to the clutch, as in abuse. In vehicles hi rpm shifts (burn outs) usually shows up with clutch debris everywhere with burned surfaces (clutch, plate and flywheel) and damaged tires. Good luck and I would consider buying them a few cases of drinks when its done and you are satisfied. I would ask about the new warranty and press for a full length of the term if it is different from the first, however.
At least at this time they are cooperating very nicely with me.

[Zork- sounds like a reputable dealer that stands behind their work. Once it is done go and tell everyone you know because word of mouth satisfaction is the best form of advertisement.]

 

[blueriver]

Thanks for all the good info... I'll keep everyone posted. So far, even though it had to go back I am pleased at the professionalism they are showing.

 

[DavesTractor]

Thanks for all the good info... I'll keep everyone posted. So far, even though it had to go back I am pleased at the professionalism they are showing.

They will take care of you I am sure. Could just be a bad new TO bearing, rare but it happens.

As far as surfacing the flywheel, yours might be fine, but it is so much labor to get to it that we won't do a clutch job without a resurface. Otherwise a customer will tell you his clutch chatters, remind you that you are the expert and not him, and tell you he would have gladly paid another $50 on a $1200 clutch job to have it fixed right....and there is no good response to the customer.

 

[Zork]

They will take care of you I am sure. Could just be a bad new TO bearing, rare but it happens.

As far as surfacing the flywheel, yours might be fine, but it is so much labor to get to it that we won't do a clutch job without a resurface. Otherwise a customer will tell you his clutch chatters, remind you that you are the expert and not him, and tell you he would have gladly paid another $50 on a $1200 clutch job to have it fixed right....and there is no good response to the customer.

Agreed.

 

[blueriver]

Thanks for the info ... I'm hoping Monday they split her and then we can look things over and make decisions.

 

[Zork]

Any new information?

 

[blueriver]

Any new information?

Yes .. they are saying now either Friday (11/11) or the following Monday when they go in. Said they want the parts all here... I told them I want to be there when she is split so I can see things first hand.

 

[blueriver]

I asked in an email what parts have been ordered ... the reply was

"I ordered the throw-out bearing, pressure plate, pto disk, clutch disk and pilot bearing in the event that I need them"

Guess they want to be prepared.

 

[blueriver]

Just got an email that says its about 40% split ... I'm heading over tomorrow to look things over.

 

[blueriver]

Just got an email that says its about 40% split ... I'm heading over tomorrow to look things over.

Just got back from the dealer. Throwout bearing is Bad.

I asked what caused the T.O. Bearing to fail. There was not enough freeplay in the pedal. If you recall after the clutch job was done last spring and a few hours into baling the shuttle quit shifting. I called from the field and he told me to adjust the freeplay until I got a smooth shift ... well I adjusted too far...long story short, because he told me to adjust it they are covering everything at no expense to me.

Just gotta appreciate a dealership like that. Here's a picture I took today.

 

[DavesTractor]

Just got back from the dealer. Throwout bearing is Bad.

I asked what caused the T.O. Bearing to fail. There was not enough freeplay in the pedal. If you recall after the clutch job was done last spring and a few hours into baling the shuttle quit shifting. I called from the field and he told me to adjust the freeplay until I got a smooth shift ... well I adjusted too far...long story short, because he told me to adjust it they are covering everything at no expense to me.

Just gotta appreciate a dealership like that. Here's a picture I took today.

Tell your friends and neighbors and help him sell a few, because he will end up eating the labor on this. Good of him to not blame you.

The key is to always have roughly an inch of freeplay as measured at the pedal, that way you know the TO bearing isn't riding on the clutch. Also there is a clutch pedal return spring up under the dash. They break, check it.

 

[blueriver]

Tell your friends and neighbors and help him sell a few, because he will end up eating the labor on this. Good of him to not blame you.

The key is to always have roughly an inch of freeplay as measured at the pedal, that way you know the TO bearing isn't riding on the clutch. Also there is a clutch pedal return spring up under the dash. They break, check it.

When I go to pick it up I am going to have them in detail show me this clucth freeplay setting.

Well I'll Just tell everyone I know and even the internet... Agri Products, Ardmore Oklahoma ... Scott Mason is the man to talk with.

Lets don't forget about Branson Tractor themselves ... They covered the parts and labor for the clutch the first go around.

In my book thats a winning combination.

 

[SPYDERLK]

Just got back from the dealer. Throwout bearing is Bad.

I asked what caused the T.O. Bearing to fail. There was not enough freeplay in the pedal. If you recall after the clutch job was done last spring and a few hours into baling the shuttle quit shifting. I called from the field and he told me to adjust the freeplay until I got a smooth shift ... well I adjusted too far...long story short, because he told me to adjust it they are covering everything at no expense to me.

Just gotta appreciate a dealership like that. Here's a picture I took today.

Im not sure, but it seems to me that a dragging clutch like you had may have been dragging because they didnt adjust the fingers to operate the pressure plate evenly. Seems this would cause more lift to be necessary as well as cause a rotating load point on the throw out. ... not good in either case.
larry

 

[blueriver]

Im not sure, but it seems to me that a dragging clutch like you had may have been dragging because they didnt adjust the fingers to operate the pressure plate evenly. Seems this would cause more lift to be necessary as well as cause a rotating load point on the throw out. ... not good in either case.
larry

I am not good with things I don't know about and clutches are one of them. From my understanding the clutch has no "fingers" to adjust... I'm confussed with the following .... When I got it back after the clutch install in the spring The clutch pedal was very responsive or in lay terms ... push it to the floor, shift and when I released it WOW within an inch of releasing the tractor was moving.

My impression of freeplay is the other way. When you first step on the pedal and before you feel some resistance it should move about 1" and then travel to the floor and then when you release the pedal ... what maybe 3" or so before the unit engages to move?

Please correct me ... I know they are going to set the freeplay for me.

 

[Zork]

@ BlueRiver- Free play is the distance the clutch pedal, linkage, and throw-out bearing move before the throw-out bearing comes in contact with the pressure plate (generally, it is measured at the clutch pedal) I have never seen two clutches alike but I have seen many that were close in release and engagement heights. All clutches that I have seen which released early and/or engaged early (very close to the floor) had problems or failed relatively quickly.

Good Luck; don't ride the clutch; throttle down when possible and, tell everyone you know about how well you were treated!

 

[SPYDERLK]

I am not good with things I don't know about and clutches are one of them. From my understanding the clutch has no "fingers" to adjust... I'm confussed with the following .... When I got it back after the clutch install in the spring The clutch pedal was very responsive or in lay terms ... push it to the floor, shift and when I released it WOW within an inch of releasing the tractor was moving.

My impression of freeplay is the other way. When you first step on the pedal and before you feel some resistance it should move about 1" and then travel to the floor and then when you release the pedal ... what maybe 3" or so before the unit engages to move?

Please correct me ... I know they are going to set the freeplay for me.

@ BlueRiver- Free play is the distance the clutch pedal, linkage, and throw-out bearing move before the throw-out bearing comes in contact with the pressure plate (generally, it is measured at the clutch pedal) I have never seen two clutches alike but I have seen many that were close in release and engagement heights. All clutches that I have seen which released early and/or engaged early (very close to the floor) had problems or failed relatively quickly.

Good Luck; don't ride the clutch; throttle down when possible and, tell everyone you know about how well you were treated!

blueriver, the fingers are part of the pressure plate assembly. The to bearing presses on them and they lift the actual pressure plate. In my mind, if the fingers are miss adjusted the plate wont rise evenly and thus the clutch is more likely to drag/engage early/etc. ... This would be harder on the throw out bearing too because the fingers would be pressing on the bearings face with much different forces and thereby tend to rock the bearing back and forth as the engine rotated.
larry