Price Check CK20 HST questions, pricing, FEL cracks, HST pedal bushing issues etc.

[malk315]

Hi all-

I've been surfing TBN for like 5 years now and finally pulling the trigger on CK20 HST -- I remember when Kioti first announced the new model and have been watching them since.

Also been watching Kubota B7510 / 7610 and a friend just bought one. I've always been a bit partial to the Kioti styling and easier viewing FEL w/ curved arms that are closer to the hood and the wider stance of the front tires. If you want pictures of them on one web page from the Woodstock, CT fair in 2003, I've got a web page I put together:

http://www.malknet.org/tractors/index.html

If I buy the CK20, my buddy and I (we live in same neighborhood) plan on making a web page with the two tractors compared in groddy detail w/ pictures of both machines for all TBN'ers to enjoy. We're both computer geeks, so hopefully we'll come up with something nice.

So -- I got a quote from a dealer yesterday who I feel is best because they are honest and seem to have the best price in Mass / Connecticut / New Hampshire area.

CK20 HST w/ turfs, KL120 loader w/ 54" bucket and, rear tire ballast. 60" MMM with side discharge -- 18% off list price @:

$15,380.00

Same thing w/ rear discharge MMM is $15,565.00

Without the deck, it would be pretty darn close to $13K -- maybe even a bit under which I think is great for the HST CK20 in New England.

All of the above is with the 0% for 30 months financing which I plan to use as a convenience for getting the machine purchased while I arrange the various chunks of $$$ I plan to use to actually pay for it.

They've been selling Kioti for about 3 years now, they also sell a bunch of GEHL excavators, skidsteers, etc. (impressive inventory) so I think they're experience w/ heavy diesel powered equipment should be competent. They're website is http://www.harvardpower.com They've got a slew of CK20, 25's, and 30's on site, some setup as TLB.

I asked them what kinds of problems they've seen w/ the Kiotis to see if they'd be as honest about that as they are w/ disclosure of their pricing and he told me about the FEL cracking issue, and how Kioti has acknowledged it, and how TBN has been talking about it.

They also told me about the HST pedal having a bushing problem where when its bad enough, you have to literally stand on the pedal to get it to move. I think that is very dangerous (I don't want to be running over my kids or putting the tractor through the back of my shed when trying to put it away), so I'm interested in any responses from TBNers on this. I realize the pedal could probably use lube (WD-40 or PB blaster) and Kioti recommends it every so often, but the bushing problem I think is different. The dealer told me (I ** think ** I remember him saying this, so don't quote me) they take some part that normally goes on the CK25 or CK30 and replace the CK20 pedal w/ that to alleviate the problem.

The only negative comment I can think of w/ this dealer is the machine I was looking at had a pretty good divot in the roll bar w/ rust. The shroud for the PTO shaft on the back was missing and the shaft was covered in rust. Also, the 3 point ball swivels were pretty rusty, and the HST pedal was a bit stiff (probably the lube thing). I'm the kind of guy that when I buy new, I'd really like no rust on anything -- I needs to really look totally new. So I'm hoping I can request I get machine that's freshly assembled and has seen little or no rain -- I do plan to store mine inside a shed / garage and prefer to start out w/ no / as little rust as possibly anywhere. Swapping the roll bar, 3 point arms for ones w/ no rust would probably make me happy -- I assume the output shaft for rear PTO is bound to get rusty no matter what unless it were covered w/ a cap or a layer of grease was put on it for which I have no clue what's best when PTO isn't in use as I have no experience w/ a 3 point setup. Comments welcome.

After visiting TBN to look for comments about the problems above, I very much appreciated their honesty as that's all I've gotten from Mike and Tom at Harvardpower with dealing with them. So I plan to purchase from them for their honesty / disclosure of price, issues, inventory, and apparent capability to service the machine.

I plan to enjoy not needing tools, a helper, and way too much time to take the 42" deck off my Toro Wheel horse Classic 315 and man-handle the tractor and Kwikway loader / subframe / weight box to get it on for a quick job of moving dirt, stone, wood, etc. and then changing it all back because I have to mow again in a week!

For the summer, spring, w/ the CK I plan to mow w/ loader off and put it on as needed to do things I used to use the wheel barrow for (or kwikway when annoyed enough that it's worth the effort to horse the loader onto the tractor). For late fall and winter, the deck will come off along w/ arms at the front to re-gain full ground clearance and loader will stay on all the time for cool and cold weather outdoor projects.

I'd like to hear any comments from you guys as I value everyone's opinion. Does the price seem good? remember New England is usually more expensive than places like Steve Carver's and the mid west.

Who's had problems with their HST pedal (really the bushing stand on the pedal problem is what I'm more interested in rather than just periodic lubing to keep it moving nice). Also -- who's has FEL cracking issues? How do you know it's cracked -- did you hear something let go? did you just happen to notice it by chance?

I anticipate w/in a week or two my buddy Jeff and I will post some pictures of the B7510 and CK20 side-by-side for all to enjoy.

 

[Steverino]

Here is the primary thread on the cracking issue. Quite a bit of reading but it should make you fully informed.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79892

I have a CK30-HST so I cannot comment on any of your other questions but I personally feel that it is as important to select a good dealer, as it is to select a good machine. Machines will always need repairs and maintenance of some sort or another and when you have big problems a good dealer will be able to help you through them. Many good dealers regularly participate in this forum. You might consider checking them out for price and proximity. Good Luck on you search.

 

[bearhawk]

I think the 20 is a great tractor, and that sounds like a very good price also.

My tractor lives outside and the hst pedal is a little stiff after 10 months. If you keep yours inside and well lubed, you shouldn't have a problem.

My problem with it is that it keeps going after releasing the pedal. I have learned to push and return the pedal to center. Not just lift my foot to stop.

Enjoy your new Kioti!

Jim

 

[gravel13]

Welcome malk315,
I bought my ck25 w fel & bh from harvard outdoor power. I was originally looking at the ck20 but ended up with the ck25, and at the time they gave me a great deal. They beat a New Hampshire dealer by about $1,500 after tax and would deliver it as well.
I'm one of the ck25 owners with small cracks in the loader, I spoke with Tom a while back just to go on record with them and he said that Kioti was aware of the problem. There was no hearing it let go, but without TBN I would have never thought to pull the cover and check for them. If you tell Mike your concerns with the ck20's overall condition he may order you one or be able to get one from another dealer by swaping stock or be able to address those concerns. I have not had one regret about getting the Kioti and from buying it from Harvard Outdoor Power. (sorry if it sounds like a plug)
Good luck with your CK20.

 

[depratt_equip]

If you buy a new CK20HST the HST pedal bushing issue has been corrected. There is a service bulletin and they have updated the CK20HST tractors by installing a bushing, the tractors that had the problems with stiff HST pedals are the ones without the bushings. We have installed about 8 of them in CK20HST tractors with no further problems.

 

[Hard]

Why would you consider spending your hard earned $15k on a brand that has cracking FELs and problematic HST pedals. Consider spending that money on an established brand or if you don't mind turning a wrench and want to really save some $$$ buy a Chinese tractor. Kioti charges as much as the established brands for their tractors but all you are getting is a pretty good paint job on a Chinese quality tractor in my opinion.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Hard, did you forget about the bent tie rods and the filters on the underside that get torn off.

Now in all honestly, the Kioti tractors are nicer than the Lenars or Jinmas. They have some pretty good ergonomics and some good capacities compared to some of the other brands. The engines are good, but I tend to think the tractors need to be refined a bit more.

 

[depratt_equip]

Wow, I can't think of a tractor brand that doesn't have problems. I heard stories about every brand breaking this weekend at the farm show..... boy do them established brands get the bashing too... seems them things do have problems too....

Bob..... I still don't understand what you think needs to be refined... All other brands at the show this weekend I saw, including the green, blue other orange and red, seem rough.... from the castings to the plastics and them some.... weak looking rear axles, small diameter rockshafts, tiny front axles and flexing fenders. I wish I was closer to you and we could spend the day tractor shoppin....

The reason we started selling Kioti is becasue we bought one... wasn't in the tractor business till then....

 

[IslandTractor]

I bought my CK20HST TLB from Harvard Power. They have been great to deal with and very honest about what problems have been noted with the CK20. If I had to do the whole thing over again I'd go back to Harvard Power and get the same tractor (especially after they fix the FEL issue).

All tractors will have issues, I don't see the CK20 as having any more than other well known brands. They get a fair amount of press on TBN because the Kioti group is pretty active compared to some of the others (Bob S hangs out here because the NH group is just too boring ). I compared it closely to the 7510 and am happy with my choice. The fit and finish were every bit as good as on the Kubota and the Kioti was clearly a more recent design and had features like position control that were missing on the Kubota. Loader capacity is better too.

I am sure that Kubota will bring out an updated model soon that will equal or surpass the Kioti features but for now the CK20 is the best bang for the buck out there in this size range. I have heard the TYMs are nice but they are more money (and power) and have an even smaller dealer network. If I were just looking for a mowing machine I would be tempted by the Kubota BX series with MMM but I use my tractor in much rougher terrain than optimal for the BX.

The price you quote for the CK20 seems pretty fair for this part of the country. I got mine for less but it was used (28hrs on it as the original owner traded up to the CK30). I looked at the MMM but am glad I did not get it. It is very expensive compared to either the Kioti or any other decent brand RFM. There are a bunch of threads on TBN regarding the advantages and disadantages of MMM vs RFM so I guess you have already educated yourself on that issue. I would personally not plan to take off the FEL on a regular basis. I haven't taken mine off yet but I doubt it is quite as easy as dealing with a 3PT attachment and that is not trivial. Get Mike or Tom to demo the FEL removal if you are really planning on doing that regularly.

Bottom line for me is a thumbs up on both the CK20 and Harvard Power.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

(Bob S hangs out here because the NH group is just too boring ).

Yup Ed, I'll admit that.

But I will disagree with you about Kubota coming out with a tractor similar to the CK, I seriously doubt they will. In the small tractor category the B7510 comes in several varieties from narrow built machines to turf specials but all are ultra-light and of modest capacity. It is a tiny little tractor by most standards. Next up are their 24hp machines and are more the size of the CK20 in physical size but offering more PTO hp to give tiller, PHD and mower decks more power than the CK20 can muster. No question the CK20 has more weight and is better at blade work, but in the small class machines, most users are not doing ground engaging work (at least as a % of their total hours but that is not to say there are not some legitimate exceptions who bought a CK20 specifically for those attributes). I suspect that Kubota will give up that part of the buying market because it is a fairly small market segment and stick with light weigh mowing machines that have more PTO hp for their size than other brands. Heck they blow away the NH for power to weight ratio and NH's smallest machines blow away power to weight ratios of the Kioti and offer slightly more capacity too.

Bob..... I still don't understand what you think needs to be refined... All other brands at the show this weekend I saw, including the green, blue other orange and red, seem rough.... from the castings to the plastics and them some.... weak looking rear axles, small diameter rockshafts, tiny front axles and flexing fenders. I wish I was closer to you and we could spend the day tractor shoppin....

Jon, I've owned all 3 of the Big 3 and currently own 2 of them. I also have operated and/or owned several brands including restoring antiques. Perhaps I am fickled. But you mention flexing fenders and that is a feature I currently enjoy. I've got a steel hooded/fendered tractor that is all dented up and a flexible plastic hooded/fendered machine that has taken more hits to it with no signs of damage save a small scratch or two.

As for 'weak looking' this or 'small diameter' that, it seems to me that that is a load of (please don't take this personally) "B.S." (and no, I am not referring to my initials ) because we should all be aware that different types of metal yield different strengths. It no longer takes heavy castings to make for strong castings and many thinner castings can be far stronger if the right metals are used.

I do agree with you that EVERY BRAND has plenty of isolated breakdowns.

But it strikes me that the more I see of the CK series (please do not take this as any condemnation of the DK series) tractors that I see the same issues reported time and time again. I actually have recommeded the CK on several occasions, I've driven and played with the 20 & 30 and they are nice looking machines. But the regular and repeated problems do tend to be bothersome. The loader control valves break at the ball joint way too often and rather than changing the design, the 'fix' seems to be to tell people they should not enter/exit the right side of the tractor! The hydraulic filters have been torn off the bottom of many of the CK30s. The loader issue is well known and while it is in the process of being fixed it is still an issue to consider when buying the CK series. The tie rods on the CK series also seem to be in a very vulnerable position and bends are reported too darn often for my comfort.

Don't get me wrong, they are nice looking tractors and I'm on the record as loving the loaders for their view and their capacity. The tractors are reasonably comfortable too, although I think the CK20 seat is a bit thin (that just might be a problem with my rear end )

Every tractor can and likely will break. The problems mentioned in this thread are problems that have come up time & time again. Each has had multiple threads dedicated to it. There was no-nitpicking on my part about anything with fit & finish, or rough castings which you seem to imply in your post. I never did that nor did I ever imply it. In fact you are the first person to mention those types of things in the thread.

I suppose that when I buy a tractor I expect all of it to work without having to learn the a bunch of tricks that are not outlined in the owners manual or to make a bunch of modifications to protect fragile parts.

 

[depratt_equip]

I am aware about differnet metals... but who is to say the tractors with the smaller shafts have the higher strengh metals?? is it just becuase they are the other orange, blue or green or part of the "big 3"? If there has been a study on this I must have missed it....

I often wonder if all tractors were the same color and decals removed what people would think about them.... Would a die hard Kubota fan find his rear in the seat of a Deere or would a Deere man be turning the steering wheel of a Kioti.... who is to say...

 

[albmn10]

I have to say its pretty sad when guys who know nothing about Kioti tractors have to put in their 2 cents and speak on behalf of the actual tractor owners whod be happy to give unbiased opinions.. My Ck30 has been flawless in 150hrs of hard use.The only issue i have had has been with a defective Woods valve on my loader, not a Kioti component. HST has been smooth as silk, excellent power. I read time and time again of problems with other tractor brands and yet I see no kioti owners step in to take a cheap shot. Every brand on here will experience problems with new designs, no brand has been excluded... I thought these troll games had come to an end, its too bad..

 

[Dodgeram]

I try to stay out of brand wars, but with all the "BS" being propogated by people who have "seen", "heard about" or "test driven" a Kioti, I feel the need to respond.
I know I've read (numerous times) about the problems with the "plastic" fan on the bottom of some of the other orange tractors getting ripped off? Did they ever acknowledge/fix that problem? I mean besides saying "Stay out of the woods."
I remember reading where the blue make has had a problem with the seat mount cracking.
When I was shopping, the CFO grabbed the handle on the fender of a B3030 and said " is this fender plastic?".
All makes have problems. I can say that I have had no, repeat no, problems with my CK30HST. No cracked FEL, No HST Pedal problems.
And that's all I have to say about that.

 

[Dargo]

I can honestly say that I did give Kioti an extended look a while back. I opted to buy a different brand. My money spent the way I see it best spent. Your money spent the way you see best spent. At least we agree on pickups.

P.S. I've had tractors with plastic fenders and hoods and I've had tractors with steel fenders and hoods. Guess what?! I still don't have any preference.

 

[Dodgeram]

"At least we agree on pickups. "

You don't have a "pickup". You've got a funny car w/a bed

 

[Bob_Skurka]

I've had tractors with plastic fenders and hoods and I've had tractors with steel fenders and hoods. Guess what?! I still don't have any preference.

That is just because you are an non-committal fence sitter who tries to walk the line without creating any controversy. I can tell you when I work in the woods, the tractor of choice is the one with the plastic fenders/hood.

I try to stay out of brand wars, but with all the "BS" being propogated by people who have "seen", "heard about" or "test driven" a Kioti, I feel the need to respond

What is the purpose of a "test drive" if not to determine if the tractor/car/truck is worthy of the price? I guess I don't understand your observation. If I test something and find it failing, or if others use it and report it breaks with too great a frequency then it gets knocked off my list. That is the whole point of companies like JD Powers, Consumer Reports, etc. I tested these, and there are plenty of reports of problems. That is enough for me.

I often wonder if all tractors were the same color and decals removed what people would think about them.... Would a die hard Kubota fan find his rear in the seat of a Deere or would a Deere man be turning the steering wheel of a Kioti.... who is to say...

That is why I am not brand loyal. I'm firmly of the opinion that every brand brings something good into the market. And I'm firmly of the opinion that every brand has some problems, some have more and some have less. The DK 35/40/45 series is a great series of tractors (need HST but I hear that is coming) but the CK is no DK.

 

[Dargo]

That is why I am not brand loyal. I'm firmly of the opinion that every brand brings something good into the market. And I'm firmly of the opinion that every brand has some problems, some have more and some have less. The DK 35/40/45 series is a great series of tractors (need HST but I hear that is coming) but the CK is no DK.

Well, I can't quite figure out all this quoting stuff, but I have to agree with Bob on the lack of brand loyalty. I think it was Jon Depratt who said he thinks things may be different if the tractors didn't have labels on them. It wouldn't be for me. Not only do I buy the tractor that "feels" and "fits" the best for what I want, but I also keep any dealer from having even a remote feeling that he can take my business for granted.

I don't mean that as an insult to you Jon, since you are obviously a dealer, but I can tell a HUGE difference in the feel of some tractors. The ole Acura (I prefer them over Lexus )vs the Chevette analogy is a bit long in the tooth, but there is some merit to it. Both are cars that will get you from point A to point B. Heck, they both may even have an automatic transmission and A/C, but they are NOT the same. For me it is the total package. Not just the fit, finish, look, but also the feel and responsiveness and operating smoothness.

Maybe I irritate some dealers because my test drive may be an hour long, but I do buy a lot of tractors. If a dealer doesn't want to put up with my long examination process, other dealers have always been happy to take my money; my checks always clear. I do not intend to be a jerk to dealers, and all but one dealer I've ever had dealings with still vie for my business. Especially since they know I am a buyer. The one dealer is the guy who told me that if I couldn't decide if I liked the tractor by driving it in a couple of circles in his lot, then I don't know my tractors. The answer there is simple; he does not get any of my money.

Anyway, sorry to be long winded, but I take the test drive process very seriously and it absolutely will make or break the sale for me. Heck, a long time ago when I first test drove zero turn radius mowers, nobody in my area had ever heard of the brand I ended up buying. I took a 2 hour test "mow" on my own lawn, had the mower up on jacks, had half of the body panels off of the mower and made my decision to buy based on what I saw and felt in it's operation. Nevermind that nobody else in my area had ever heard of a front mount diesel powered Grasshopper mower. The brand popularity (or label on the mower) did not mean a thing to me. It's overall quality and operating feel made the choice for me rather easy. Over a thousand hours later I still have that mower and it is surprisingly as tight and mows just as well as the brand new one I bought a few months ago.

So, brands, labels, etc. really do not mean much to me. Track record (if one exists) and the operating feel to me do mean everything. I learned long ago that when I bought mowers and tractors on price, I always lost. Four or five cheap mowers or tractors cost more than one good one. I look at the overall operating cost more so than the actual initial price.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

. . . I have to agree with Bob on the lack of brand loyalty. . . I take the test drive process very seriously and it absolutely will make or break the sale for me.

Well we agree on 2 things then. When I bought my Ventrac I bought it from a dealer who brought it to my property and let me try it out on my slopes. He showed me how to change the implements and I tested the mower, the FEL and the tractor without either installed. I also compared Power Trac and Steiner, which I also had out at my property. I also considered getting another Cub, a JD and probably a dozen other brands. The Ventrac was clearly the best beast of the bunch for my needs, it was also very well made, even if it looked clunky. The entire agonizing process is detailed right here on TBN and it was (if I say so myself) clearly thought out.

The whole point of the test drive is to evaluate the design, the features, the comfort, the ergonomics. There are many things that you may miss in a normal test drive.

Then there are forums like this to help. Read the forums, look for multiple reports of the same problem. When the same problem is reported many times, then it is a design flaw or a manufacturing defect. Whatever you call it, a problem that is reported time and time again is going to knock a tractor off my consideration list . . . no matter what brand it is.

 

[depratt_equip]

no insult taking dargo... there are those who look beyond brand name.... but many don't.... what i was getting at was that some people just dismiss kioti as a second rate because it say "kioti" on it and not "deere" for example... I was just thinking out loud in my post... not intending to step on your toes...

It seems you are not one of those people who look at brand...... glad to know they are out there!! I always tell people tractors are like shoes not one pair fits all.....

 

[malk315]

Thanks to all for replying -- yes I'm sticking with Kioti because even though there have been a few issues, the only outstanding one is the FEL cracks and I'm thinking Kioti will do something about it. I've been watching the CK-20 since the day it was announced -- I'm aware of a while back the 2x4 backing over it w/ the HST and not doing it on someone's tractor and if I remember correctly Kioti made good on it and fixed it.

To me the Kioti is a little heavier than B7510, I like the wider stance front axle -- I think it will have better stability than B7510, I also like the fenders that cover the rear tire more on the Kioti thinking less mud will kick up on me when rolling down the street after tires get a little mud in the turf treads. I also like the better viewing on the FEL and 54" bucket instead of 48" on kubota. Also Kioti has a little more lift capacity. I also like the Kioti has quick pins for taking off 3 point arms which I will need to do to fit into the shed and same quick pins to take just the bucket off to put a grapple or forks on quickly (kubota has cotter pins as delivered from kubotaa for bucket and probably quick pins like Kioti for 3 point arms, so no biggie -- although I think the shorter reach of kubota loader would mean a B7510 w/ loader and 3 point arms installed would probably fit in my shed that is 11' 3" deep from back wall to front doors -- it's 16' wide, so no issue there).

The only thing I like better about the B7510 is the way the 7510 ROPS -- folds better than kioti for which I will need to do to get it into the shed for storage.

Jeff and I feel both the B7510 and CK-20 are great machines and we were really splitting hairs when comparing all the specs and whatnot of their capabilities.

I'm willing to take the chance on the loader as the track record has been really good over the last 3 years of CK20, 25 and 30.

I may be wrong, but I believe the loaders are made by a loader company that also makes the NH loaders -- so is it really strictly a Kioti issue? I don't know if NH loaders have had any problems -- perhaps Kioti has had input to the design of the loader even though a separate loader company makes them.

Anyway -- the financing was approved today, and if my grill guard comes in and the tires can be filled and tractor prepped in time for friday, the tractor will be delivered friday. If not I'm hoping saturday, worst case monday to take delivery of the machine.

My buddy Jeff and I for the last 5 years have been to every JD, Kioti, and Kubota dealer in a 100 mile radius of us in central Mass (includes some dealers in NH, VT, CT, and RI). Of all of those, the JD dealers have been the worst -- I can remember one that was nice down in Norfolk, MA. The guys at 146 supply didn't make us feel very welcome.

Tim Ahearn and Norfolk power have been the best Kubota to deal with and Mike at HarvardPower along w/ the nice folks a Mitch's repair Kioti dealers have been great. Freemans Kioti in Woodstock connecticut were aweful -- I wanted to buy a husqvarna chainsaw bar while we were there and I felt like I was a burden to them w/ my petty chainsaw bar purchase... They're closer to me by distance, but Mike is getting my business.

So for those Kioti fans who have taken a close look at Kubota also, Jeff is excited to get the machines side-by-side and post some pictures and specs. I've had probably an hour or so of loader work in Jeff's machine (B7510 gear drive w/ LA302 loader) and Jeff will take a spin in my machine when it arrives so we can really note the differences since we can't really notice those things with short test drives at a dealership.

I'll post the obligatory pictures when the machine arrives. Hopefully Jeff can bring the 7510 or I can drop over there for some side-by-side pics.