CK 25 will not start

ritcheyvs · Sep 18, 2018

My theory is that the pre-2008 OE control sleeve gears are somewhat brittle but worked fine for the "old" stop solenoid design. In that design, an external solenoid was energized to operate the manual stop lever via linkages. I expect the "springiness" of the linkages mitigated any shock transmitted to the rack. But the new (2005 on) design is like a spring-loaded hammer smacking directly on the end of the rack. Apparently, those control sleeves were redesigned after 2008 to be tougher to withstand the repeated impact shock.

My new replacement control sleeves had an index mark to align with scribed lines on the rack. The OE control sleeve did not. My original sleeves (and the new ones) had teeth all the way around the sleeve but some owners reported teeth only half-way around. Based on this, my new sleeves are at least the third version of this part. These failures stopped after the 2008 models so I have reason to believe the new design is much more durable.

gravel13 · Sep 18, 2018

Well I hope the ones I order will be the last ones I will need. What exactly did you line up? Maybe it will make more sense once I get my pumped pulled out and the parts in hand. The only problem is I'm going away this Saturday and all of the following weekend. But I still want to order an intake manifold gasket and possibly gaskets for the oil fill plug and the manual shut off plate. Not sure if there are any others. I too was looking at my radiator hose that runs just below this area and it too is soft and I was thinking of replacing that too but I was having a problem finding the exact part # on some of the online Kioti websites. Might need to make a phone call.

ritcheyvs · Sep 19, 2018

The "bad" ones haven't been made since 2007, or so, so you should get the latest version. This photo (from neches write up) shows the lines on the bottom of the rack:

When correctly aligned, marks (dots. I think) on the bottom of the gears align with these lines, with the rack centered, as I recall. Sorry, no photo. Recommend you study neches writeup carefully before you begin. Also, use your cell phone to take photos as you go, especially if you have to leave for a time with the job part done.

In case your new gears don't have these marks, use the adjacent cylinder as a guide (another reason to do one cylinder at a time). Even with the gear correctly aligned with the rack, it's possible for the plunger to be rotated 180 degrees, which won't work. So note the orientation of the slot in the plungers.

gravel13 · Sep 19, 2018

Will do. Thanks again. Hopefully I have time today to try to order parts.

Oh if you want or if you are still updating the IP failure spreadsheet, feel free to add me to the list. My CK25 is a 2005 model with first failure back in August 2010 with 238 hrs on meter and now September 2018 579 hrs on it. I can get serial number of tractor when I get home from work if needed.

thepumpguysc · Sep 20, 2018

IF you want to MAKE SURE your getting the correct/latest parts, find the Central Distributor" for fuel inj. parts in your area..
Those are the people who supply ALL the parts to ALL the other shops.. They move THOUSANDS of parts A DAY..
A fuel shop cant order parts directly from the factory.. they HAVE TO go thru their "Central".. Ya see what I'm getting at??
The Central WILL HAVE a parts dept where Joe Blow can walk in/CALL in & buy parts.. IF you have the part #..

gravel13 · Sep 24, 2018

Just wondering as I have the parts on order, but did you guys clean out the pump after removing the broken control sleeve? Meaning should I spray anything up inside to make sure I get all the broken pieces out? I do not plan on removing the delivery valves. I was thinking of putting some diesel fuel in spray bottle and spraying that up there. Not sure if carb cleaner would contain something that could effect anything in the valve? seals??

ritcheyvs · Sep 24, 2018

The rack, control sleeves, and the lower plunger are normally lubricated by engine oil. The upper plunger and cylinder (and delivery valve) are lubricated by Diesel fuel. The broken gear teeth are likely still in the IP rack area or possibly in the oil pan. These broken teeth parts are quite small. As you remove each control sleeve remove any debris you see; a tiny magnet may help fish out any pieces. I don't see any need to wash anything but yor Diesel spray sounds good and be sure to lubricate parts on reassembly. You don't want to run them dry, especially the plunger-cylinder interface and plunger-control sleeve interface. I think clean Diesel fuel or any kind of oil (even Wesson Oil) would make an adequate assembly lubricant.

gravel13 · Sep 25, 2018

Ok. Yeah I have some oil that we used specifically for rebuilding my sons 250 dirt bike.

gravel13 · Oct 6, 2018

Well good and bad. The control sleeves finally came in this week so today I went out to work on it. Thought I might be able to start it again and idle it into the garage but no luck, so I had to work on it in the shed which was a pain as I had very limited room. Got everything apart and when I started taking the pump part I got the first one out and everything looked good but I put a new sleeve on that one then onto the 2nd one and sure enough there were 4 splines broken off, so I put on a new sleeve then moved to the last one and it was fine but I still put a new one on that too. Got it all back into the tractor and buttoned everything up and it started, but..... it is idling at 1200 rpm. I can't get it to idle any lower. So I started looking at everything again and going back over the manual and on page 2-47 under pump installation it reads

3. Make sure that the lever of the pump control rack is on the outer side from the fork lever 1 when installing the pump.

So I had to think if I did that and couldn't remember. So I pulled the oil fill flange cover off and as I was looking at it the lever is like right behind the fork lever. I tried with my finger to move the rack lever to the left(rear of tractor) but it wouldn't go, it would move very smoothly to the right (front of tractor). Prior to actually installing back in the tractor, it would move left and right very very smoothly. Is the rack lever supposed to be all the way to the left when reinstalling it, I kind of had it centered in the pump when I put in back into the tractor. I took a pick but it is hard to get straight on as I had to work around the FEL arms.

Here is the broken sleeve

So basically I'm wondering if removing the pump again and moving the lever of the control rack is all the way to the left, if that will solve my problem. I did try loosening and tightening the idle adjust bolt, but it didn't have any affect. I actually made a mark on it and where it screws in so when I reassembled it, it would be back at the original spot. The only good thing is, if I have to do it again, I can at least remove the FEL now that it runs.

ritcheyvs · Oct 7, 2018

With the Stop Solenoid installed and un-powered, the rack should be forced full aft (by the strong SS spring) so you won't be able to push it farther aft but it should move forward with enough force. But with the SS powered (or removed) the weak preload spring behind (left of) the IP should push the rack full forward to rest against the other arm (not visible in photo) of the governor. Is it possible one (or more) of the gears is a tooth off where it engages the rack, which would deliver too much fuel to that cylinder? Did your new gears have an index mark to align with the marks on the rack? I'm just guessing here but it seems like you should be very close to correct or the engine would not have a stable idle, even if a bit fast. How is it at higher throttle settings? Stable?

gravel13 · Oct 7, 2018

I was saying to my dad, who was my extra hand when needed, that when I gave it throttle from idle it almost had a little stumble at first. My sleeves didn't have any index marks on them per say, but on the bottom of them on one side was slightly different than the other side which corresponded to the ones that came out. So I put the new ones in that way. I was wondering if they moved slightly while trying to reinstall. The idle did seem stable with no stumble or anything, just that I couldn't get it to idle below 1000 and it may also just have been me that thought when stepping on the accelerator pedal that it had a little stumble at first not a continuous one. I just kept thinking that after reading where the lever for the control rack in was supposed to be on the outer side of the fork lever as in this pic

in which it would have to have been almost all the way to the left when installing whereas I had it kind of in the middle of the slot of the pump. Also, is there any trick to keeping everything lined up when installing back into the pump? It just seemed like there was a lot of "slop" while trying to insert everything back up into the pump so I'm not sure something didn't move a tooth off. I wish my pump had a "cut out" at the rail so I could see the marks like this pump

ritcheyvs · Oct 7, 2018

Well, if it starts, runs, and stops (with SS) you can't be too far off. It's unfortunate that your new sleeves didn't have index marks. Mine idles a little faster with new sleeves but that's no problem for my gear transmission. Is the high idle causing a problem? The idle position is set by the balance of the throttle springs on arm 2 and the centrifugal governor. Arm 1 and 2 should be full forward when the engine is stopped (from the springs) and you pretty much must install the IP with the rack centered to get it through the hole. So I don't think you did anything wrong there. If it were me, I think I'd just use it as is unless the high idle causes a problem. To slow it down, you'd reduce the spring pressure from the throttle springs on arm 2. Not sure there is an adjustment for that. and don't have time to research.

gravel13 · Oct 7, 2018

Ok. Don't worry about researching as I don't want to get into spring pressure adjustments as with my luck I'd make it worse. The high idle isn't a problem that I can foresee, it's just that anything that is different from what it was caught me be surprise. It does start, run and stop (with the SS) so I guess like you said it can't be too far off. Hopefully that doesn't cause any issues down the road. I too have a gear model. I just wasn't sure if there was a way to make sure the sleeves were index properly while trying to reassemble as once I inserted it up into the pump if something moved I wouldn't have known, as I inserted it as a complete assembly or was I supposed to insert the sleeve then the plunger, spring, etc.. I just don't think I could get the sleeve up inside without doing it as a complete assembly.

thepumpguysc · Oct 7, 2018

The new gear either has a dot or a chamfered tooth..
they are hard to see when they're down inside the pump bore..
A flash lite is A MUST..
I've gone so far as to mark the chamfered tooth w/ "white out".. so its easier to see..
I hope that helps.. TPG

Fuggley · Oct 8, 2018

hummm.... looks about right to me. I think your idle speed is correct too. Here’s a pic of mine before I fixed the twisted governor springs and a book pic of a correct setup, can’t see from your photo what is much different. Good job.

thepumpguysc · Oct 8, 2018

I just re-read your post about assembling it as a whole assembly..
U put the gear in, aligning the dot or chamfered tooth w/ the line on the rack..
Then u put in the spring seat, followed by the spring..
Then u put in the plunger, making sure its going the correct way, WITH the spring seat attached to the plunger.
Then the shim & tappet.. then the tappet keeper pin, then the pin keeper "band"..
Its assembled piece by piece..{except the plunger & spring seat}.. NOT as an assembly..

gravel13 · Oct 8, 2018

thepumpguysc said:
I just re-read your post about assembling it as a whole assembly..
U put the gear in, aligning the dot or chamfered tooth w/ the line on the rack..
Then u put in the spring seat, followed by the spring..
Then u put in the plunger, making sure its going the correct way, WITH the spring seat attached to the plunger.
Then the shim & tappet.. then the tappet keeper pin, then the pin keeper "band"..
Its assembled piece by piece..{except the plunger & spring seat}.. NOT as an assembly..

BINGO!

I took it all apart today and sure enough they were off slightly, each one about 2 teeth, I was putting the control sleeve in how the old one came out but keeping everything together but I would have to wiggle it a little to get the control sleeve to fit the rail and that is how the control sleeve teeth moved from the mark on the rail, and this time I did as you just described and I was able to find the index mark on the control sleeve. Put it all back together and when it started it idles just like before and no stumble or excessive smoke. It works great for now. Thank you everyone for all your help and comments.

thepumpguysc · Oct 8, 2018

Good deal.!!! Happy to help.. I'm glad u took the time to re-do it, correctly.. Happy tractoring.. TPG

ritcheyvs · Oct 9, 2018

Minor technique variation when I did mine. I started with the plunger inserted in the cylinder and then slid the gear (control sleeve) over the plunger shaft and aligned the dot (they were dots in my case) with the line on the rack. Like TPGSC said, you really need a good flashlight to see these gear marks (love those new mini LCD jobs). Then I put the spring and keeper on the plunger shaft by withdrawing the plunger just enough to slip the "keyhole" over the end of the shaft. The flats on the shaft were always in the control sleeve which was still engaged in the rack. I don't recall if it is possible to see the gear dots with the spring in place.

In any case, congrats to Gravel.

thepumpguysc · Oct 9, 2018

No, you cant see the gear w/the spring in place.
Heck, once u put the spring seat in place, you cant see..
I do about 5-6 of these pumps every month.. & you REALLY have to be confident that u hit the mark, EVERY TIME..
My process is, I put ALL the gears in at once..
..then I double & triple check them w/ a lite.. then once I'm SURE, absolutely SURE.. then & only then, the rest goes in..