Chinese quality improvements

[knukey]

I was researching chinese tractors heavily 3 yrs ago and decided against them since I was worried about quality. I even chatted with a trader with US references and got quotes for a crate unit shipped to a local port. At the time they were trying to skirt EPA carb regs and the guy was talking about shipping the unit with a false manufacture date. He wasn't concerned with the fact that if I went to pick it up and it wasn't allowed I would be in a world of sh*t. I bought a reman'd grey Shibaura did my tasks and sold it after a few months, it was junk. My questions are: Has the quality improved on the chinese brands since '06 and if so who's the leading now? What's the status of the various brands carb compliance?

Not trying to start a brand war or offend anyone, just wanted to get caught up quickly to the state of the union so to speak in chinese tractors 2010.

 

[greg_g]

FWIW, Shibaura is Japanese - and what you purchased was both grey market and used. So factor that experience out of the Chinese equation. And second, your Chinese tractor experience to date sounds limited to a single self-importation enquiry, and with a single broker at that. Third - I know you were referring to EPA emission standards - but these are diesels. They don't have "carbs". And the Chinese tractors sold in California are the same as those sold in anywhere else in North America.

That said, reputable importers (not brokers) have learned the games played by the Chinese. They deal in container loads, as opposed to single units (like a self-importer), so money talks. When foreign volume buyers request/suggest changes/improvements, the Chinese manufacturers often comply - rather than face possible lost sales. Among other reasons, this helps explain why self-importation has dwindled to almost nothing in more recent times.

So the qualified answer is yes. The quality and compliance of tractors sold by reputable US dealers (not brokers) has indeed improved since your experience. But as in all else, the old adage caveat emptor is still the best advice.

//greg//

 

[Heywood Jannockitov]

Third - I know you were referring to EPA emission standards - but these are diesels. They don't have "carbs".

Maybe he was referring to "CARB" as in California Air Resources Board.

 

[20 20]

I have a 254 tractor{06} and feel it is a VERY tough machine. I have work the _____ out of the thing and it just keeps going. When I upgrade I will be going with another I also bought the nortrac dozer{same as jinma tractor basicly} and am very happy so far. The only complaint I have with the dozer are the track pins{believe they have fixed the issue now}. They bust easy, but it is also an easy fix, no big deal.

 

[bjr]

I would think you'd be interested in the hearing from owners with older chinese tractrors to see how they've held up. I will tell you my 6 yr old JM354 has held up very well and done every thing I've wanted to do. My opinion is that a Major portion the breakdowns with chineses tractors have been front drive trains that have FEL's mounted on them. I do not have a FEL and have had NO front drive failures. I've participate on the board from the beginning of owning the tractor and I feel that these are machines where the owner needs to mechanically able. There were modifications to be made and regular maintenance, but for the price they're good deal. bjr

 

[knukey]

Thanks Heywood, that's what I was referring to. Is there perhaps a year and make that is excelling now? Is it Foton, Jinma, etc.

I'm too aware of Shibaura being japanese grey market. Where I messed up I was buying "remanufactured" with a Bulldog loader. What a pile of crap. I broke the loader and the clutch went out just after I sold it. I still lean toward a non-remaned grey (from a reputable dealer) over chinese, but I wanted to check the status now.

Since resale is poor, this might be an option to buy a used chinese tractor so knowing if a brand and year was better would be helpful. Like most things you have better years than others and some years introduce new models and upgrades.

I did have a negative experiece with this particular broker and I acknowledge they're not all the same. The fact they were sending non-compliant equipment over really concerned me. If customs caught it and I was left holding the bag I would not like it.

Buying a crate tractor worries me. It appears I need some equipment to lift the main part of the tractor to install the tires and I don't have access to them.

 

[Diamondpilot]

I have a 2003 254/284 with no issues at all except for a newly leaking front right axle area. Looses 1/2 cup of gear lube a week. Not a big deal but I am going to fix it. Called Ronald at Ranch Hand Supply and he sent me out a rebuild kit with all the gaskets, seals, ect for next to nothing. My tractor has 750 hours or so and I have put over 15 hours on it in the last 5 days doing snow removal. We are getting hammered with over 2' on the ground and winds over 45 mph in the last few days.

I also replace the thermostat, oil pressure sending unit (my fault it broke) a hydro steering hose (my fault again), and the starter. The oem starter gave me issues after 1 year so I simply replaced it and put he old one on the shelf for a spare. Its been a good, no a great tractor.

As others have mentioned the tractors get better every year.

The FEL is a must. I have had no front axle problems and either has my co-worker who owns a 2005 unit. We both use them hard. I would say 95% or more have FEL's so yes the weakest part will break sooner or later if used and abused like I do my machine. When it does its a cheap easy fix that any of us can do with the help of the experts here.

By the way 4 of us bought tractors in a one month period in 2003. Mine and my friends Case DX29 are the only ones not to go back to the shop. Both my uncles JD and my neighbors Kubota have been in. The JD for a PTO that went out, the Kubota for a broken tranny. So anything can break.

Chris

 

[Bob Rooks]

I bought a reman'd grey Shibaura did my tasks and sold it after a few months, it was junk.

That statement suggests that you didn't even perform any maintenance - bought a decent re-manufactured tractor, rode it hard, and put it away wet, although I hope that's not the case. Nothing stands up to that type of treatment for very long.

 

[greg_g]

I still lean toward a non-remaned grey (from a reputable dealer) over chinese,

I don't think you actually understand the grey market. In many cases, "re-manufactured" amounts to being cleaned up just enough to look presentable on the lot. Most of those I've seen were also "rode hard and put away wet", then given a quick paint job - maybe a new seat or a couple of tires - and that was it. "Re-manufacturing" didn't enter the equation (especially the ones that come from Viet Nam).

Can't speak for your area, but around here - grey market sellers have completely dried up. Haven't seen one since Chinese tractors started to catch on. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure this is a national trend. You got bit once in the grey market, I'm surprised you'd consider jumping back in.

I'm not sure where you came to that conclusion about resale value. I've had four Chinese tractors: recovered every penny of my investment on the first one - made a profit on the second one - and still getting excellent daily performance and economy out of the third and fourth.

All in all, I think you have demonstrated enough preconceived notions to justify recommending you spend several hours (or days) researching both grey market and Chinese tractors on forums like this. A lot of us have been at this a long time. As such, I'm bettin' you can significantly broaden your knowledge and understanding of both subjects - by simply diggin' around in the archives.

//greg//

 

[20 20]

I have a 2003 254/284 with no issues at all except for a newly leaking front right axle area. Chris

Same thing happened to mine{FROM ABUSE}. I also talked with Ranch Hand Supply{awsome help} and got the parts from them. Mine ONLY broke because I was tough and constantly over loading the FEL. It was a very easy fix, followed the advice and photo's on Ranch Hands site. The hardest part of the fix was the mess{gear oil}. Neighbors both have the blue machines and won't even dare to do what I do with mine, theirs are allmost twice the hp. With that said they have also had to have theirs in the shop for major repair Like I said before I won't hesitate at all about buying another one, next one will be bigger though

 

[knukey]

Are any years or brands better than the rest?

Trying now to avoid the grey vs chinese debate. Should have left it out in the first place.

 

[Diamondpilot]

Kama, Jinma, and Foton are the better brands simply because there is more parts and support being state side. If looking for a 25-30 HP tractor the Jinma is king. Plenty of parts and by far the best seller is the 254 and 284.

DF is starting to make a showing but will cost a little more and parts if needed may be harder to come by.

I would not be afraid of any of them. Parts are easier to get for my Jinma then they are for my Ford Tractor. Also much cheaper and support from the dealers like Ranch Hand, Affordable, Artrac, Spring Valley, ect make me think I could fix anything needed. The Ford dealers only want to sell parts. No advise given because they want it back in the shop.

As for years they get better everyday. Many go to the dealer and say that is the one I want. A few week later when its delivered they has been improvements that the dealer did not even know of until they un-crate it.

Chris

 

[Smalljobs]

I have a Jinma 284 and put 160 hours on it since May. It's got a Koyker 160 loader and Markham toothbar as well as poor quality USA made logsplitter.

I appreciate value and really enjoy high performance cars. My daily ride is a late model BMW as well as a home built Corvette powered Fiero but when it came down to buying the tractor I just could not justify the big $ on local ebay for a used top brand. It made no sense to me. I read all I could find on this bulletin board as well as others and recognized the strong user support and parts availability. I liked the DIY maintainability.

I spend at least 8 wks per year in China for my own company and made a side trip to see the Jinma factory. Photos are shown here http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/chinese-tractors/145095-jinma-factory-pics.html..

So.the tractor has served me very well with some really tough usage since May. It's already paid for itself.

Yup the quality of the fiberglass, paint, casting finish, etc is not like the big brands but neither is the price! I can find fault with lots of details in form and fit, but not function.

Logsplitter I bought a well known USA brand and had nothing but trouble with the mfr. It would have been cheaper and faster to buy a Chinese splitter. As a professional in this business you'd think I would know better but I decided to give us a chance and failed. Problems were bad paint, damaged hose, extremely poor service, etc. The mfr didn't even know the length of the hose on the machine they sold me!

It's a great deal for the right person. I'd buy another one tomorrow, in fact, my next step will be a backhoe.

 

[Steve C]

I was researching chinese tractors heavily 3 yrs ago and decided against them since I was worried about quality. I even chatted with a trader with US references and got quotes for a crate unit shipped to a local port. At the time they were trying to skirt EPA carb regs and the guy was talking about shipping the unit with a false manufacture date. He wasn't concerned with the fact that if I went to pick it up and it wasn't allowed I would be in a world of sh*t. I bought a reman'd grey Shibaura did my tasks and sold it after a few months, it was junk. My questions are: Has the quality improved on the chinese brands since '06 and if so who's the leading now? What's the status of the various brands carb compliance?

Not trying to start a brand war or offend anyone, just wanted to get caught up quickly to the state of the union so to speak in chinese tractors 2010.

I can't speak for the newer ones. I have a 2005 farm pro 2425 (Jinma) with about 90 hours on it. The brakes are weak but are getting better. It handles everything I have attached to it. The 7 foot rear blade along with the 4 wheel drive handles the snow even without chains. The 3 point has lifted over 1200 lbs. The 72" tiller requires me to use a low gear, but it is doing a lot of work. I have put about 10 gallons of diesel in it in the last 40 hours

 

[Rich Waugh]

I have a 2007 Jinma 304 that I bought as a crate unit and assembled myself. Myself, as in single-handedly. I'm over 60 and no muscle man, but the only lifting device I used was my cherry-picker engine hoist to put the wheels/tires on and assemble the front end components. This has been a great tractor and has out-worked my neighbor's larger Kubota on several occasions. The control valve for the Jinma ZL-30 loader was a piece of crap that I just replaced with one of Ranchhand Supply's kit units - what a difference! The loader is strong enough, the control is just crap and needs to be replaced.

Would I do it again? In a heartbeat.

FWIW, a friend has a grey market Shibauru he bought several years ago and works like a slave. Nice little tractor, with the emphasis on little. Still, it does a lot of work for him and appears to be a strongly built machine for it's size (15hp).

Rich

 

[mffarmall]

I have a Jinma 284 (Farm Pro 2425) and it runs good. Was looking at a JD and for the same price was going to get a 80's model that was not kept up. I can say that I have had a few problems. But I would have problems with the 30 year old JD as well. And I probably would have taken it to the dealer. I probably will change out my Jinma with a cabbed cat or JD when I'm older and don't want to fix things. But I like my tractor and will probably have it for years.

 

[mffarmall]

Rich getting a lot of snow down there

 

[carpenter383]

Aren't there rumors of JD moving part of their opperation to china?

 

[greg_g]

Aren't there rumors of JD moving part of their opperation to china?

Been there several years, several locations:
John Deere (China) Investment Co., Ltd.
5th Floor, Tower A, GATEWAY,
No.18, Xiaguangli, North Road, East Third Ring,
Chaoyang District, Beijing, 100027
CHINA

John Deere (Tianjin) International Trading Co., Ltd.
5th Floor, Tower A, GATEWAY,
No.18, Xiaguangli, North Road, East Third Ring,
Chaoyang District, Beijing, 100027
CHINA

John Deere Jiamusi Works
No. 1 Lianmeng Road,
Jiamusi, Heilongjiang, 154002
CHINA
-- Combine Harvesters

John Deere (Ningbo) Agricultural Machinery Co., Ltd.
No. 1792 Ci Hai Nan Road, Luo Tuo Street
Zhenhai District, Ningbo, 315002
CHINA
-- 20-50 HP Agricultural Tractors

John Deere Tiantuo Company Ltd.
278 Hong Qi Road
Tianjin, 300190
CHINA
-- Agricultural Tractors and Engines

John Deere (Tianjin) Company Limited
No. 89, 13th Avenue, TEDA,
Tianjin, 300457
CHINA
-- Transmissions for John Deere tractors

//greg//

 

[mffarmall]

Are those factories and offices that JD has over there or do they just make parts for them.