Case 580M wiring

[outlawsix]

I picked up a Case 580M earlier this week. it has been sitting for 3 years. So getting it to my place was a chore but now that it's here ive been going through it. Drained the hyd tank, fuel tank, changed engine oil and filter. Put a hose from the fuel pump to a can filled with Diesel. Got it all primed etc. Did remove 1 injector and took it apart. Put it in a bucket of carb cleaner to soak overnight. Couldn't even see the hole in the injector, so not sure if it is so small I cant see it or it is plugged off solid.

So anyway can not get it to turn over with the key. Can get it to turn over using a wire that the previous shad tree mechanic jury rigged. I took side consul apart this evening and its a mess. For some reason someone cut the wiring harness off and put slip on fittings on the wires, I don't even recall how many wires right now but there were two terminals on the ignition switch with nothing connected to them. Then found a red and black large gauge wire(10 gauge maybe) that had been cut and nothing attached to them. Waiting on my manuals to come in. But in the mean time does anyone have a wiring harness picture for the ignition module? Or even a picture of what colored wires go to each terminal on the switch?

When I turn the key I can hear the solenoid click, so getting power to at least that point. I replaced each fuse today and took each relay off, cleaned it and terminals and used di-electric grease on them. I know it can run, yes I used either, not wise but it will run.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

 

[outlawsix]

An update, took side consul off and figured some things out. The large gauge wire went to one of the two power plug ins on right fender. Still no idea why the original ignition harness was cut. I think still missing a wire but cant find the missing wires to go to ignition coil. So if anyone can tell me how many wires go to the ignition switch as well as what colors go where id really appreciate it.

Was under the backhoe looking for a fuel line copper washer I dropped and when I got up apparently I had bumped some wires and they fell. The wires were black and gray inside the plastic sheathing. was around it. So anyone know what gray and black on right side go to? They were chewed all up, so rodents got to it. I looked all over, under etc and couldn't find anything. Not sure if this is why engine would run but missing wires sure cant be a good thing.

 

[BukitCase]

"cant find the missing wires to go to ignition coil" - huh?? Isn't that a diesel? Also, dunno about the larger engined 580M but some injectors use a multiple hole pattern that's designed for more efficient atomization and the holes are maybe 10-15 thousanths if that.

I did a quick search for case 580M injector orifice size, came up with squat - but this

http://airflowperformance.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/INJECTOR-NOZZLES.pdf

tells me that an actual MANUAL wouldn't be a bad idea - note the "inch pounds" specs on the injectors in that pdf, as well as the warning NOT to put anything sharp in the holes...

My old 580B has a manual fuel shutoff (like a choke cable) but I would think a newer one would have a fuel shutoff solenoid - those won't run unless the solenoid has power so if that's the case, wiring/switch/solenoid ALL must be good or NO FUEL - they might ALSO have a MANUAL shutoff in case the solenoid fails - killing fuel is the ONLY way to stop a diesel (or killing the air intake, of course :=)

Sorry I can't help more, this sounds like a serious "project"... Steve

 

[outlawsix]

So sorry, meant to type starter solenoid, no idea why I would type ignition coil. There is a grounding strap on one of the bolts that mounts the starter to the bell housing. Then the hot wire to a bolt on far right side, along with another wire that goes back into the frame up along the right side. No idea what it ties into since it is all encased in the black plastic sheating. A white wire is attached to screw on bottom of solenoid, and a blue wire comes out of the starter and attaches to bolt on left side of solenoid. Thought there was suppose to be a wire from starter to the alternator, but no such wire. In fact there is an exposed stud on right side of alternator that has nothing attached to it. To say someone jacked with the wiring is an understatement.

There is indeed an electronic shut off valve that does function, so at least some of the power is getting to where it needs to get to. On the Cub Cadet 7265 I once owned it too had an electronic fuel shut off solenoid. I wanted back up so rigged a manual one as well onto the governor housing.

It is indeed a project Sir. But like many things its one step at a time. So wish anyone in my area had one to look at. Im very much visual so that would help me immensely.

 

[BukitCase]

Can't help you with visuals, but this

Case 58sr 59sr 695sr 58+ Super R Series 3 Backhoe Loader Service Manual CD | eBay

is a no-brainer to me - Hopefully I CAN help with not getting screwed; notice that this manual on CD states that it's "bookmarked and SEARCHABLE"? - if you look for CD manuals (MUCH cheaper, + you can print out and smear with grease as many times as you want, the original is still CLEAN

Take it from me, you do NOT want to "price shop" these CD's without making DANG sure the one you order is SEARCHABLE - just saying "printable" isn't enough, most of those are just PICTURES of the pages of an original manual.

In order to be SEARCHABLE, those pages need to be scanned AND "OCR'd" - stands for Optical Character Recognition. That process changes all those PICTURES of words to something a computer can actually FIND - so you can search on the word "solenoid" and the computer will find EVERY instance of that word. From THAT perspective, the CD manuals kick the crap outa the $100+ books (which I ALSO have)

I've not bought from THAT particular seller (the one I got mine from isn't advertising anymore), but I'm attaching a couple page examples from the searchable CD I have on the 580B, so you can see if that level of info would be helpful to your "visual brain" - mine tends to work that way too (when it works at all :laughing

Remember, these are for a 580B, so I doubt any of the info would be directly useful to you - but $15 for the CD I linked should... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Oops, just noticed that manual I linked is NOT for the "M" - only SERVICE manual I found that is, does NOT say it's SEARCHABLE. I questioned the seller of the correct manual, should hear back before long and will post back when I hear. Link -

Case 58M Turbo 58 Super M 58 Super M+59 Super M Series 2 Service Shop Manual

...Steve

 

[outlawsix]

Unfortunately my cds came today. Cant search them, would have been nice. And to top it off, no wiring diagrams. However it did give me some helpful info. As in position of the starter relay. Also must be in neutral to start on the column. So will give that a shot tomorrow. Also took the fuel shut off solenoid off today. I think its shot. Reason is the plunger is not locked extended like I was expecting. It would easily extend or retract by tilting it. Did apply power and nothing happened, grounded it out on the engine. So ordered one of those. On the starter switch I have only 4 wires. Would any of you be so kind as to tell me how many wires on on your starter switch also what colors are plugged into what please. There is one terminal with nothing attached to it, the bottom terminal.

For all that have read along with this adventure as well as given suggestions, I truly appreciate it! Thank you.

 

[outlawsix]

Oops, just noticed that manual I linked is NOT for the "M" - only SERVICE manual I found that is, does NOT say it's SEARCHABLE. I questioned the seller of the correct manual, should hear back before long and will post back when I hear. Link -

Case 58M Turbo 58 Super M 58 Super M+59 Super M Series 2 Service Shop Manual

...Steve

im ready to pull the trigger on the service manual you provided a link for Sir. Searchable would be so nice, but either way I do need a good service manual. Had hoped the 2 CD's I ordered would have had one in it, but alas there was none. There is some good info, that I will hunt down tomorrow, relays etc, but either way I do indeed need a service manual. Once you hear from the seller on the searchable please let me know. Thank you again Sir.

 

[BukitCase]

You'll be the SECOND to know; but not by long :laughing: - sorry you got sucked into that, I get the impression there's several people on ebay who took the easy way out (no OCR) and STILL paid for their scanner many times over. Don't think much has changed over the centuries, "caveat emptor" isn't a NEW phrase.

Wish I could help on your immediate wiring, but besides being a completely different model/year, mine's been butchered a bit too - just not as BAD as yours. I start mine with a semi-permanently attached remote starter switch and a screwdriver, THEN turn the key on so (some of) the gauges work. Before I take THAT job on tho, there's 7 or 8 hydraulic cylinders that need kits. Already did swings and stabilizers, one of the loader lifts and one of the curls. Guess that leaves 7 including the loader bucket tilt compensator cylinder.

Even so, this is ANOTHER "tool" they'll need to pry outa my cold dead fingers :thumbsup:

Anyway, soon as I hear YOU'LL hear... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

Bad news I'm afraid - from the seller -
"New message from: sharpex11 (224Turquoise Star)
You can not use the search function but it is organized in chapters"

I guess if you're desperate that one might be OK, but I clicked on some of the pages and the wiring ones seem a little blurry. Maybe the actual thing will let you expand enough to read? Think I paid around $20 for mine and they're not the sharpest, but expanding the pages works OK.

Wish I had better news for you... Steve

 

[outlawsix]

Some news is better than no news. And since im having issues I will get it. If a better one comes along down the road I will get it. Cant have too much knowledge

This morning I checked more things. One the relays, all of the relays on the left pod will click when I turn the key. Only relay on the right pod that works is the turn signal/flasher relay. Nothing else will work. Began poking around and cant find any loose wires etc. The instrument panel does no light up, not with brakes, low fuel etc. Nothing works. So not sure if this may spark something or not. The issue has to be electrical not mechanical, but there is a piles of wires, connections etc. A new starter arrived yesterday. Going to install it today. Not sure it will change anything but have it so will install it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

 

[BukitCase]

"new starter" rings a WARNING bell in my head - probably nothing, but on the older case like mine, there was more than one option - one had a 9 tooth gear, another had like 10 or 11, so I held off replacing mine til I have allowable down time that isn't already spoken for -

Newer ones probably don't have that little glitch, but if I were digging into yours without full manuals I would VERY CAREFULLY count the teeth and measure stuff COMPARED to the OLD one - ounce of prevention, and all that...

'Nuther little gem that bit me in the tender parts recently (no relation to backhoes, but still good to remember)
I bought a "project" 50 foot manlift, engine running but not well - turned out I replaced one head on the Wisconsin V4.

Found a free download of the engine manual, and blindly took their word about head bolt torque - bought new grade 8 bolts (5/16"), the manual was old enough they said to use "oil mixed with graphite" - so I goes "oh, NeverSeez..."

Then that manual gave a torque value, which I set on my Proto torque wrench - instead of a "click" I heard "SNICK" - thought, crappy Chinese bolts", repeated the procedure on the SECOND bolt; same sound

Finally abandoned my "cranius rectumus" and found a torque chart for fasteners from 1-80 up to over an inch; lists 2-5-8 grades, in LUBED and DRY - the setting the manual called for was the maximum DRY torque for that fastener, and the LUBED setting was about 20% LESS than that.

Lesson learned I guess - I now have that chart in the pics on my phone, so I always have that "second opinion"... Steve

 

[outlawsix]

I've experienced same thing with torques before. Not a fun experience. I wouldn't have even thought about the tooth count. Thank you for bringing it up. I didn't get around to the starter today. It's on tomorrows list but will indeed check it once I pull the old one off.

Did find a connection(black and gray) with nothing attached to it. Reason I mention it is the mystery wires(gray and black) on the ground the other day. Still cant find what sensor etc they were connected to. DO plan on making a jumper just to see if anything new happens.

Since no wire was on the hoe from alternator to the starter positive terminal, like in pics ive found, I bought a 2 gauge wire and will hook that up once new starter is installed.

I don't get why things are shoe horned like they are. the tranny filter is in a very awkward location. Not convenient at all. Guess I figured since a bigger machine things would be a wee more convenient to get to and work on. To that end, there is a heavy rubber mat between engine bay and console. Plan to remove the muffler bracket mount in order to make starter change easier.

 

[outlawsix]

Thank you again for your tip! Sure enough tooth counting new one was wrong. Even though seller listed it for the 580m 445/m2 it doesn't. I wrote seller asking them to remove the machine from their list of what it fits. I swapped things around this morning and bolted it on. Didn't want to hot wire it since still trying to trouble shoot where the issue lies. Swapped relays around from left and right pods. The ones that were on the right do work on left pod so at least that's and relays weren't bad.

I put a jumper on seat safety still nothing. There was a black and gray wired two prong harness on top of tranny so jumped it and still no change. I'm sure it's simple whatever it is.

Instrument panel doesn't function still. Anyone, please help. Still hoping to see a pic of back of ignition switch. I have 4 wires on mine. Blue in center. Gray on top. And red and white on left and right sides. So if anyone has different arrangement or additional wires please let me know.

Thank you in advance

 

[outlawsix]

Was thinking the white wire that goes to the starter from ignition switch is plugged into the gnd tab. The ign tab has nothing attached to it. With this said should white wire go on ign tab and a wire from frame to ignition switch gnd tab be in place? Asking because I'd prefer input so I don't burn anything up

 

[outlawsix]

SUCESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I rummaged the net and found a pic of a yanmar starter and ignition switch wiring. Ive owned 2 and they are as basic as it gets. Anyway looked at wiring diagram for the switch and it said nothing goes to ACC pole. Sure enough on the 580M the gray wire was on ACC, white on Grnd. I put white on IGN, Gray on GRnd and it turned over and instruments worked! Been bleeding air out of injector lines. Got too zealous and heated up the starter. SO letting it cool for a few hours. Will give it a shot again and hopefully I will be using it tomorrow! I will keep the forum posted on how it goes.

 

[BukitCase]

Glad to hear you're having SOME success; if you ordered that (nonsearchable) repair CD, hopefully that'll get you the rest of the way -

Glad to hear I wasn't wasting your time in mentioning the starter gear, NOT so glad you actually NEEDED the info - not sure what Case is thinking, or even IF...

Sorry I didn't keep the "cheerleading squad" goin' for you, been taking delivery and placing 2 40 foot containers that'll let me relocate quite a bit of "inventory" so I can reclaim a fair amount of shop space.

Built 2 toe jack add-ons for 2 20 ton air/hydraulic jacks, between those and other tricks picked up in 34 years working heavy industry, I'll have both containers lined up back to back and 12 feet away from the shop, parallel to it - then a roof goes on (think "lean-to" off the shop) - that'll give me an 80 foot long "equipment tunnel" for the hoe, 2 other tractors, 18 foot trailer holding 4-5 OTHER implements, all under shelter.

So far the first container's lined up exactly where I want it (toe jacks worked perfectly, along with a couple of blocks) - next I'll use the ramps off my equipment trailer to put one tractor+ 7 foot Gannon box at the back and the other tractor (probably with the 6 foot tiller on) at the door end of the first container - those two items will add about 12,000 pounds of "ballast" to the first can so it's less likely to shift when I pull the 2 together (with the second can also jacked up and on rollers, tied off to the hoe - one corner of the second one will need about 12" of cribbing to get it level, don't want the can to slide downhill til it's locked in place.)

I'm basically taking all of today "off", spent the entire day yesterday in 100 degree heat getting things prepped for the second can - cut the neighbor fence (mutual benefit/aggreement) and installed 2 10 foot gates so there was enough "wiggle room" for the driver to set the can and get away from it, then moved/spread 10 yards of 3/4minus rock that ALSO woulda been in the way - driver showed up at 7am as promised, and was gone by about 7:45. 'Sposed to be cooler manana, so the second can will sit there on the ground til then, at which time me and my various "mad scientist" toys will likely have it in place and leveled by nightfall, sooner if all goes reasonably... Steve

 

[BukitCase]

BTW, have you seen THIS?

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/case-ih/353273-case-580m-backhoe-wont-start.html

If there's even ONE little "pearl of wisdom" you'll find it... Steve

 

[outlawsix]

You have been a very busy man! Love the container idea. After hurricane Katrina I took a high cube 40' conex box and converted it to a man cave/hurricane shelter. AC, internet etc. Have even toyed with the idea of taking two and making a temp housing further up north Mississippi. I had actually read the thread you linked prior to writing my own.

Took the injectors out today, all four, hooked them back up to the fuel lines. turned the engine over for a few seconds over the course of 4 minutes. Was able to see that all the injectors fired exactly like they were suppose to. Screwed injectors back into the block and turned the key. With a puff of white smoke she fired up, after 5 seconds white smoke was gone and engine was purring. I was shocked, happy, surprised all at once. Now just to work on minor things and get it all buttoned up. Thank you again for all of your helpful advice.

Tomorrows list includes pulling a FEL cylinder and rebuilding it. The loader doesn't have the FEL lock bar. Are there salvage yards, etc, that sell Backhoe parts?

 

[BukitCase]

Injectors - wonder if by doing that, you managed to bleed the system better?? Anyway, it's a WIN -

Cylinder rebuild - could you post a pic of what your cylinder's gland nut looks like? Need to see the surface of the nut where the rod comes thru, including any holes. I'm all too familiar with mine, wanna see if I can offer anything on yours or if they're completely different...

I have 7 that need rebuilt on mine, it's gonna be a winter project. Probly got enough things to fix/mod it'll be lucky if it's back together by June I'll just hafta prioritize the things that irritate me the most, starting with using a LOT less $10 a gallon hydraulic fluid.

Got a pic of what the FEL lock bar looks like? Older ones had no such thing, I keep meaning to build a pair of these -

Around here there are a couple tractor boneyards, usually pretty proud of anything that's still identifiable tho - I can buy steel and plasma cut weights cheaper than they sell 'em. That's part of the reason I bought a mill; couple of my old tractors have cracked parts, etc, that I'll end up machining when I get to 'em.

I'm 72, and the one thing I'm pretty sure of - they'll be pattin' me in the face with a shovel LONG before I ever get bored - I guess that means I WON :laughing: ...Steve