Bringing the draft back ???

[AndyM]

<font color="blue"> Most importantly, is our government currently doing enough domestically to help the future of this country? Schools, jobs, etc. </font>

<font color="red"> Here we disagree. The items you mention, while important, are not more important than the security of the country. If we do not have security, these other things do not matter. </font>

It is important to build a strong future for this country, or there will be no need to even bother protecting it.

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> It is important to build a strong future for this country, or there will be no need to even bother protecting it. </font>
We will have to agree to disagree. I look at this no differently than my own household budget, i.e., 'needs' come before 'wants'. Security is a 'need', almost everything else is a 'want'.

 

[fivestring]

Andy, I didn't mention schools because it is not the governmrnt's job to educate children.
When the government made itself involved in education, everything went to pot:
It costs 5-15k a year to educate one student (7k here in Charlotte). Each year, the school system begs for millions more. Why does it cost so much? Homeschooling costs 1/5 of that amount. (No, I was not home-schooled)
Violence in gummit schools.
Weapons in schools.
Lack of discipline in schools.
The knowledge of American students in several areas (math, foreign languages, geography, to name a few) is lacking compared to other countries.
Sports seems to be the key class in gummit schools. Funding for music and arts are being cut at alarming rates nationwide.
There are many more problems with gummit involvement in schools. A google search of "public schools" or "dumbing down of America" should open a lot of eyes. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Behind the welfare program, gummit schools has been the next largest waste of $$$$ the government has ever been involved in. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

 

[OkeeDon]

<font color="blue"> For the amount of money we send to ******, we could retire the national debt.
</font>

The total amount of money we sent to ****** from 1949 to 1997 was a little less than $85 Billion. Interest we paid on that amount came to just under $50 Billion. So, the total cost to us was a little under $135 Billion. Considering that aid has continued for almost 7 more years at around $7 Billion per year, we are probably up to $185 Billion, maybe as much as $225 Billion with interest. That's over 55 years and many different administrations. Every administration has defended it as what is required to maintain the only more-or-less true free democracy in the Middle East.

The national debt is just over $7 Trillion as of today.

We have already spent almost as much as the Israeli's total received over 55 years in one year in Iraq (about $115 Billion to about $135 Billion), not counting interest in either case, and Iraq costs will likely rise to at least $200 - $300 Billion in the next couple of years.

 

[AndyM]

We're drifting WAY off the original topic, aren't we? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
It's been a great discussion, though...

<font color="blue"> Andy, I didn't mention schools because it is not the governmrnt's job to educate children.
When the government made itself involved in education, everything went to pot: </font>

There are WAY too many levels of administration involved in education. Each city school district, each county, each region of the state. Then there's the state board of education and department of education, and the U.S. Department of Education.

While I'm on the subject of that, what exactly does the U.S. Department of Education do that the lower levels of bureaucrats don't already do? There's no duplication of jobs in the levels of administration??? They have 4800 employees and a $54.4 BILLION budget! The U.S. Department of Education wasn't created until 1980. My goodness, how did we ever survive before that time???

<font color="blue"> Sports seems to be the key class in gummit schools. Funding for music and arts are being cut at alarming rates nationwide. </font>

My wife was a loyal empoyee of a local school district for three years. We lived in the community and we were involved with the programs in the school and community, even though we have no children. Heck, before she graduated, she even did her student teaching there. After stringing her along every time there was a full-time opening, they hired people from outside the district who could also double as coaches. Doesn't loyalty to your employer and community matter at all? /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif

Speaking of home schooling, Gary, I'll send you an email later telling you about what my wife is doing for a living right now. She's still involved in education, but works in a cubicle in an office building downtown. She loves children, and didn't go into teaching for the money. She wanted to be someone who could shape the lives of children. It seems the priorities in education are all wrong, and it breaks her beautiful heart not to be doing what she has wanted to do since being a small child. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I know it's not about the money, but we really can't afford to have her go back to teaching at a Christian school for $15,000 per year with no benefits. That's the going rate at all the ones in this area. You spend six years in college, build up tens of thousands of dollars in student loans, and you could make more working at Wally World. That's messed up!

 

[fivestring]

<font color="red">"has defended it as what is required to maintain the only more-or-less true free democracy in the Middle East." </font>

Are they saying that without our money sent to them they would not be a democracy? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

What do we truly get in return for our investment in that country? /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Oil? Commodities? Cars? Durable goods? Sugar? Steel?

 

[OkeeDon]

<font color="blue">Are they saying that without our money sent to them they would not be a democracy? </font>

No. They're saying that without the aid they wouild not exist. Much of the aid is military, and has been used to win several wars attempting to take them over.

What do we get for our money? A balance to the more totalitarian states in the region, and an example of how democracy works. The same things our administration is currently saying in order to justify the war in Iraq. Not bad, except that we're spending over $4 Billion per month in one, and less than $7 Billion per year in the other. We won't be getting any special deals on oil from Iraq -- the French, Germans and Russians have all the oil contracts with Iraq, and the reasson why we had to have an $87 Billion supplement, instead of having the oil money pay for the reconstruction as Paul Wolfowitz stated before the war, is because we capitulated to the French, Germans and Russians (my opinion, but backed up by the fact that we are going to use the oil money to pay off Iraq's debts to the F, G & R).

 

[riptides]

Don,
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( And, I'm going to confuse my distinguished friends who think I'm on the "other side" by defending the current administration. )</font>
Well, AHHHHHHH.... yes. Confused. How can you explain administrative policy so clearly and yet believe in media reports linking Iraqi to 9/11.

What you do, is more important than what other people say.
IMHO of course.

/forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
-Mike Z.

 

[riptides]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( <font color="brown"> ( After reading this thread in light of the way the people act now I wonder,was it worth it? ) </font>)</font>

<font color="violet"> the way people act now </font>

Maybe I read more into it than I should have. I saw it as a vet questioning his service to our country. I may be mistaken.
I feel no veteran needs to defend their service to our country.

Ever.

-Mike Z.

 

[Tractors4u]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Good grief, can you imagine what will happen if they actually do ever find WMD burried in the dessert? That will bolster the war mentallity )</font>

People complain that we haven't found WMDs and now you speculate as to the negatives of finding a WMD. If we find a WMD how about saying, "Wow the president was right". If we found a dozen WMDs with address labels to the USA it still wouldn't be enough for some people. I go back to one of my earlier comments. Some people are against this war simply because of Bush.

 

[slowrev]

If you will check history ****** sort of founded the modern bombing concept of terrorism in the middle east when they bombed the British over there and run them off. I guess the rest of the groups took this as a working example and followed suit.

 

[MossRoad]

I didn't say one way or the other who I was for or if Bush was right or wrong. Personally, I hope that they find WMD. It would eliminate a lot of doubt, both in our nation and abroad.

 

[Hank_Kimball]

<font color="blue"> </font><font color="blueclass=small">( It seemed we should have let the international community take care of it until it was obvious that they couldn't )</font> </font>

17 violations of the Gulf War treaty,harrased and kicked the inspectors out,the US and Britiain air craft taking fire on a regular,almost daily basis in the no fly zone. The United Nations done absolutely nothing and would not ,heck they are finding out the oil for food program was a way of lining the UN's pockets.The United Nations is a joke and Bush the same thing as told that to them when he spoke in front of the UN and told them it was time for them to stand up to Hussein or the US would go it alone.

<font color="red"> On February 26, 1993, an explosion occurred in the World Trade Center. The explosion caused six deaths, 1042 injuries, and nearly $600 million in property damage. </font> This is when they should have started the War on terrorism,we had a very big wake up call and did not follow through.
Thank God we now have a President who has the grit and good moral character that President Bush has.

 

[Bob_In_MN]

Man--I've stayed out of this for as long as I can.

I'll start by saying:

I'm not a vet.
I wish I would have served my country.
I'm thankful to those that did/do.

Andy's comments on the war and spending money on schools got me thinking.

In Minnesota, nearly 1/2 of the $30 Billion state budget is spent on education. We're constantly told we need new referendums and that a vote against a referendum is a vote against the children.

The funny thing is--we don't have more children in MN schools than we did 20 years ago, yet it costs more to educate them. We spend $10,000 per student in Minneapolis and have a deplorable graduation rate. I've researched this quite a bit as I typically find myself defending my position of opposing throwing more money at the education problem hoping that will take care of things.

Here's what I have learned from a study comparing education stats (in MN) from 1989 to 1999.

Our English as a second language population is up over 200%. Our special needs children have been mainstreamed into classrooms and many of them need to be accompanied by someone from one class to the next (these are paid positions). More children have mental health related learning disorders and many of these disorders are caused by the stresses of being new to the country and finding a hard time "fitting in". There are teachers telling me they have new students (new to the country) that are physically 8th graders who read at a 4th grade level. It's not their fault, but it costs more money to educate these children than it does an english speaking child. I also believe that many of the dollars spent never get to the classroom where it can do some good.

We (MN) have the highest (or second highest) populations of Somali and Hmong residents in the U.S. It costs us hundreds of thousands of dollars just to incorporate the various languages into our new light rail system (another bright idea brought to us by Jesse Ventura--man I wish he would have stuck to wrestling).

So--I'll say that I supported the invasion based on the WMD issue. I'll choose to believe Bush made a decision based on evidence available at the time (others can form their own opinions). All Americans will have an opportunity to voice their opinion in a few months.

BUT--we will continue to pay a high price to have open borders. This price will (in my opinion) be paid in dollars and lives. It also seems to me that if we don't help police the world, we will continue to get an influx of immigrants from the, for lack of a better word, crapholes of the world. Some of these people will be good, some bad, but make no mistake that we will either be paying to help these people in their country or we will pay for them when they come here.

 

[OkeeDon]

</font><font color="blueclass=small">(
Well, AHHHHHHH.... yes. Confused. How can you explain administrative policy so clearly and yet believe in media reports linking Iraqi to 9/11.)</font>

Ah, but I didn't say I believed the reports. You implied that I believed the reports, and I simply let it pass as I thought that anyone who had read my post carefully would have seen you were mistaken. If you go back and read my original post on this subject, you'll see that what I was talking about was the reasons why so many other people believe the Iraq invasion was the right thing to do. Then, you questioned whether the administration had ever said anything like that, and I provided evidence that they had certainly implied it. Me believe it? I wouldn't believe anything that bunch said. Even when I think they're right, I question why they really said it.

If this was the typical open forum, with lots of flames, I might have let 'er rip about -- well, I can't go there.

 

[Boondox]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Thank God we now have a President who has the grit and good moral character that President Bush has.
)</font>

Hank, I agree that Bush II has grit. The moral character bit I'm not sure about. And bright he's not; I guess that's the part that has me worried. He has been taken by surprise several times now (the Iraqis didn't welcome us with roses, the mission was not accomplished, the disbanded Iraqi army didn't just suddenly decide to become bright upstanding citizens, the Pakistani border turned out to be porous, etc), all things a primer on Arab history would have told him had he opened a book. He and his administration are not prosecuting this war in an intelligent manner. I'm worried. I'm really worried...

Pete

 

[Hank_Kimball]

Moral character: Bush is a choir boy compared to our previous leader.

Intelligence,I do not agree with you there either.

There are a lot of Iraqis that have welcomed us,go back and watch the videos when we rolled into Iraq and the statues came down.

<font color="blue"> </font><font color="blue" class="small">( the disbanded Iraqi army didn't just suddenly decide to become bright upstanding citizens,
)</font> </font>

Are you saying they are the ones causing us the problems now ?

I blame Rumsfield and Tenet for the problems we are now facing in Iraq. I think McKain needs to replace Rumsfield. We need more troops on the ground a lot more.

Clinton done 0 in the battle against terrorism,like I say this should have been dealt with back in 1993.Thank God Gore did not get elected.