branson 4720h cleaning radiator

   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #31  
Same tractors are sold in EU without any of that DPF crap and a regular muffler in it's place. They breathe so much better without being choked. I'm sure we all know that this DPF crap it's just a way for the big boys to make easy money. It just kills engines in no time and just makes us burn a lot more fuel for nothing. There is no point on running wide open to keep the DPF clean and on top of that it will still dump all the crap off during regen.

Back pressure ain't really an issue. Again, they sell the same engine with turbo and DPF so the back pressure will be even higher and it still is not a problem. By removing the DPF, it just makes it better.

Bransons don't do regens. There's no additional fuel injector. There may be changes to how the fuel injection is timed on the DPF vs non DPF engines that could affect fuel economy slightly but I've not found any references for that.

Branson does rate the different engines slightly differently in the US vs elsewhere. I assume that reflects their actual output. So a US model engine that Branson says makes 32hp at the PTO (or whatever it is for the model in consideration) makes 32hp at the PTO with the DPF in place.

We don't know that a properly functioning DPF reduces exhaust flow or performance any more than a muffler does. Modern catalytic converters in gas vehicles aren't a significant restriction, so the knowledge and technology to make good flowing catalyst is there. New pickup truck diesels are making more power than ever, even with more stringent emissions regulations than < 75hp tractors are subject to. If my 3725's 2.1 liter Cumins B engine made the same power per liter as the 2020 Dodge Cumins 6.7 liter it'd be putting out 125 hp instead of 37.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #32  
And you're missing the point that I've ALREADY talked to my dealer about this. He's told me point blank that it will make NO difference in my warranty coverage. And he's the one that would be doing any warranty work on my tractor. So I'll take his word over yours. Any day.

As ptsg stated (correctly), they sell this EXACT same tractor in other countries with the only difference being there is a muffler where the U.S. version's soot cooker goes. There is a soot cooker, and a data logger on the U.S. version. By removing only those 2 things, you eliminate the entire "emissions system" on these models. No other changes or "mods" are needed. There is NO computer system, nothing to "hack", no fuel system changes need to be made. Several members here have already done this. Each one has stated it made a performance gain by removing.

There is no risk.

Sorry, wrong answer. There IS risk to anyone who tampers with any emissions system, and or removes or modifies its components. (I'll link to the appropriate EPA regulations and specifically their extensive fine(s) for individuals and manufacturers later in this post).

First let me dispel the notion that seems to wrongly conclude that back pressure would occur by removing emissions components. I never said that- what I posed for the OP, was that using several 90's or 180's in modifying his tractor exhaust could cause issues, that's all, nothing more.

I'm not creating any drama, or controversy. I am stating facts about how things are done here in the USA, NOT Portugal, or anywhere in Europe; which has NO bearing on the OP's engine whatsoever. And if people want to do a comparison of USA to Europe roll back to Volkswagen, Porsche/Audi for the clearest example of EPA enforcement of defeat and tampering with US compliance for diesel vehicles. If there are violations they will prosecute, and obviously do and have to date, from the USA all the way to Europe they beat the manufacturers of those vehicles into submission for all the reasons well known to the entire World. They're serious as a heart attack about non-compliance, and people modding mandated emissions systems...

On or off road engines are all covered by the the EPA's emission rules. And while on the subject of European diesels, road use diesels are being banned in numerous cities across Europe as we discuss this topic. Not yet applied to off road like tractors, but it will likely soon follow, or an alternative like US emission devices- no one knows currently.

Here is the EPA fines and penalty document: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/vehicleengine-penalty-policy_0.pdf

And here is an excerpt from the 30+ page doc:

Under Section 205(a) of the Act, 42 U.S.C. 8 7524(a), the maximum penalty for
violations of the vehicle and engine requirements under Title I1 of the Act is $25,000 per vehicle
or engine, with two exceptions. The maximum penalty for violations of the tampering
prohibition when committed by any person other than a manufacturer is $2,500 per vehicle, and
the maximum penalty for violations of the defeat device prohibition is $2,500 per device.

These maximum penalty amounts were increased from $25,000 to $32,500 and from $2,500 to
$2,750 for violations occurring after
March 15,2004, through January 12,2009, and to $37,500
and $3,750 for violations occurring thereafter
(see Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Ad-iustment
m, 69 Fed. Reg. 7 12 1 (Feb. 13,2004) and Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Adiustment Rule,
73 Fed. Reg. 75340 (Dec. 11,2008)).

So there are the FACTS. And what one's dealer tells them doesn't change anything. If you mod your engine and your dealer looks the other way about you having done so, they and the manufacturer would likely get dragged into any action taken against the tractor owner.

Regardless of what they tell you now, it's NOT in writing, and no smart dealer would put their manufacturer in the bind of having to go against the EPA on warranty on a modified engine. No smart manufacturer would attempt to warranty a non-compliant engine for one customer, especially since you the buyer did the mods.

Removal IS a violation, regardless of any, 'it runs so much better claims' made by an owner.

Personally, I don't care what any individual owner chooses to do to their engine/exhaust, etc. I get it that tier 4 final is a cumbersome regulation on tractors and their owners; a large part of my not buying anything past tier 4 prior to final specks. It is however the law of the land, like it or not. Tamper with it at one's own risk. Remember, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

What I do care about is pointing out to those who may be misinformed about the law and fines that could easily be imposed, that they DO exist, and the statement that the EPA says NOTHING about anybody but the manufacture having to comply, and NOT modify a EPA specked engine, is ill informed and wrong. Just because people have done it, and results were supposedly better performance is not the point. Modifying is breaking federal law. The RISK is stated above. It IS enforceable.
Do what you want to- and don't shoot the messenger - I'm merely stating facts.
 
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   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #33  
I'm not comparing anything. How could I even compare two different Continents? :)

Actually, looks like you are the one comparing stuff, not sure why.

You mentioned: " I am stating facts about how things are done here in the USA, NOT Portugal, or anywhere in Europe; which has NO bearing on the OP's engine whatsoever."

In fact, it actually matters to the OP, because the same exact tractor is sold here without the emissions system and I mentioned just to prove the fact that the OP's tractor will work just fine, if not better without it. You don't see me comparing whatsoever on my previous post.

And by the way, if the OP was willing to spend a lot of money on shipping, he could actually find a European or Australian dealer that would ship a new and stock exhaust pipe and muffler to him and the tractor would still look exactly as original without having the looks of a "shade tree mechanic mod" as you said.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #34  
Good luck with your exhausts,
it would be nice to just bolt on the European exhaust,
a nice clean looking system, unfortunately it wouldn't get the exhaust
pointing upwards.
I have to wonder on these newer one that don't have a provision
for the exhaust to come thru the hood like so many older tractors did,
ie. the IH 560-1066 style. What would a 180 just coming out from the hood and going up
be like.
Lou
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #35  
I'm not comparing anything. How could I even compare two different Continents? :)

Actually, looks like you are the one comparing stuff, not sure why.

You mentioned: " I am stating facts about how things are done here in the USA, NOT Portugal, or anywhere in Europe; which has NO bearing on the OP's engine whatsoever."

In fact, it actually matters to the OP, because the same exact tractor is sold here without the emissions system and I mentioned just to prove the fact that the OP's tractor will work just fine, if not better without it. You don't see me comparing whatsoever on my previous post.

And by the way, if the OP was willing to spend a lot of money on shipping, he could actually find a European or Australian dealer that would ship a new and stock exhaust pipe and muffler to him and the tractor would still look exactly as original without having the looks of a "shade tree mechanic mod" as you said.

OK. You're NOT comparing anything? So what's this from your referenced prior post:

"Same tractors are sold in EU without any of that DPF crap and a regular muffler in it's place. They breathe so much better without being choked..."

From where I stand, that IS a comparison of 'same tractors/regular muffler', (from Europe). And again two continents tractor's compared above: 'he could actually find a European or Australian dealer that'...

Maybe where you live comparison is defined differently, but I suspect not. What's the big deal if you or I do or don't compare things done differently on different continents anyway? My original point is that what goes on in Europe, Australia or elsewhere does not bear on the issues around enforcement of emissions controls or defeat mechanisms or tampering on EPA spec engines required to comply with regs here in the USA.

Undoubtedly one could theoretically import non- compliant parts from around the World, BUT that is highly unlikely due to cost prohibitive S/H, not to mention importing or exporting those parts into the US and out of a foreign country may well be restricted as well. So though it's a interesting way to get around regs here, it is likely prohibited. Read the EPA rules- it may be stated as such.
Again, anyone is able to circumvent the law if so inclined. This is also why things like this are regulated by laws in various jurisdictions. THey're laws, not suggestions for a reason. In this case to reduce the instances of cancer causing chemicals and minute particulate matter in the air humans breathe. Sort of an important issue, except for those who don't give a crap about anyone except their own lungs.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #36  
Sorry, wrong answer. There IS risk to anyone who tampers with any emissions system, and or removes or modifies its components. (I'll link to the appropriate EPA regulations and specifically their extensive fine(s) for individuals and manufacturers later in this post).

First let me dispel the notion that seems to wrongly conclude that back pressure would occur by removing emissions components. I never said that- what I posed for the OP, was that using several 90's or 180's in modifying his tractor exhaust could cause issues, that's all, nothing more.

I'm not creating any drama, or controversy. I am stating facts about how things are done here in the USA, NOT Portugal, or anywhere in Europe; which has NO bearing on the OP's engine whatsoever. And if people want to do a comparison of USA to Europe roll back to Volkswagen, Porsche/Audi for the clearest example of EPA enforcement of defeat and tampering with US compliance for diesel vehicles. If there are violations they will prosecute, and obviously do and have to date, from the USA all the way to Europe they beat the manufacturers of those vehicles into submission for all the reasons well known to the entire World. They're serious as a heart attack about non-compliance, and people modding mandated emissions systems...

On or off road engines are all covered by the the EPA's emission rules. And while on the subject of European diesels, road use diesels are being banned in numerous cities across Europe as we discuss this topic. Not yet applied to off road like tractors, but it will likely soon follow, or an alternative like US emission devices- no one knows currently.

Here is the EPA fines and penalty document: https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/documents/vehicleengine-penalty-policy_0.pdf

And here is an excerpt from the 30+ page doc:

Under Section 205(a) of the Act, 42 U.S.C. 8 7524(a), the maximum penalty for
violations of the vehicle and engine requirements under Title I1 of the Act is $25,000 per vehicle
or engine, with two exceptions. The maximum penalty for violations of the tampering
prohibition when committed by any person other than a manufacturer is $2,500 per vehicle, and
the maximum penalty for violations of the defeat device prohibition is $2,500 per device.

These maximum penalty amounts were increased from $25,000 to $32,500 and from $2,500 to
$2,750 for violations occurring after
March 15,2004, through January 12,2009, and to $37,500
and $3,750 for violations occurring thereafter
(see Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Ad-iustment
m, 69 Fed. Reg. 7 12 1 (Feb. 13,2004) and Civil Monetarv Penalty Inflation Adiustment Rule,
73 Fed. Reg. 75340 (Dec. 11,2008)).

So there are the FACTS. And what one's dealer tells them doesn't change anything. If you mod your engine and your dealer looks the other way about you having done so, they and the manufacturer would likely get dragged into any action taken against the tractor owner.

Regardless of what they tell you now, it's NOT in writing, and no smart dealer would put their manufacturer in the bind of having to go against the EPA on warranty on a modified engine. No smart manufacturer would attempt to warranty a non-compliant engine for one customer, especially since you the buyer did the mods.

Removal IS a violation, regardless of any, 'it runs so much better claims' made by an owner.

Personally, I don't care what any individual owner chooses to do to their engine/exhaust, etc. I get it that tier 4 final is a cumbersome regulation on tractors and their owners; a large part of my not buying anything past tier 4 prior to final specks. It is however the law of the land, like it or not. Tamper with it at one's own risk. Remember, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

What I do care about is pointing out to those who may be misinformed about the law and fines that could easily be imposed, that they DO exist, and the statement that the EPA says NOTHING about anybody but the manufacture having to comply, and NOT modify a EPA specked engine, is ill informed and wrong. Just because people have done it, and results were supposedly better performance is not the point. Modifying is breaking federal law. The RISK is stated above. It IS enforceable.
Do what you want to- and don't shoot the messenger - I'm merely stating facts.

Ok, slow down. Take a deep breath. Now relax a little bit.

First, I can see where part of your confusion is coming from.

That area of your post, that I made bold. All of it. Every single word and syllable of it. Is concerning Vehicles or engines being manufactured in, or being imported into the U.S. And it is strictly rules against the MANUFACTURER or the IMPORTER. You are trying to compare apples to space shuttles.

There. Is. NO. Federal. Law, Rule, or Mandate. For. An. Individual. Equipment. Owner. To. Leave. The. Tier. Emissions. Equipment. On. Their. Off Road. Farm. Equipment.

Now. Go. And. Relax.

I actually sat down and read that entire EPA rule. Thanks for that. Now you owe me 20 minutes of my life back.
 
Last edited:
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #37  
Good luck with your exhausts,
it would be nice to just bolt on the European exhaust,
a nice clean looking system, unfortunately it wouldn't get the exhaust
pointing upwards.
I have to wonder on these newer one that don't have a provision
for the exhaust to come thru the hood like so many older tractors did,
ie. the IH 560-1066 style. What would a 180 just coming out from the hood and going up
be like.
Lou

Lou,

Yeah, if they had just brought the exhaust out the back top area of the hood, that would have been fine with me. I don't think I could do anything like that without it looking shoddy afterwards. Since the hood hinges up from the back, there'd have to be a slot cut pretty big in the hood for the exhaust to clear as the hood opened. It would still have to be tall enough not to blow exhaust in the face of an open station operator though, so maybe they're considering the added risk of limb or tree damage from the exhaust getting whacked.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #38  
I quote from my earlier post: "when committed by any person other than a manufacturer is $2,500 per vehicle, and"....

What exactly isn't clear about ANY PERSON? That means individuals, shade tree mechanics, individual shop owner's, ANYONE OTHER than manufacturers.

So slim, there IS a need to leave it on, (no tampering), and there ARE numerous requirements to NOT remove any part of it; other than to replace defective components with working ones. In addition for NO ONE to remove ANY part of the emissions components, whether they consist of one or a hundred components...

Is further detail needed -Slo? Take whatever amount of time needed to re-read what I quoted. One of the two exceptions IS when individuals- like you or others who decide to mod their tractor do so and render themself as having broken the EPA rules as stated in the document. It is about manufacturers AND individuals, which you fall into the individual violator category IF you remove, modify or tamper with ANY emission device on your off road diesel tractor. End of story.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #39  
Coyote, I suspect that you worry about a lot of things that people don't need to be worry about. I'd be curious to see the statistics of how many people are denied warranty because of a modified exhaust routing. Probably an incredibly small list. And I'd bet if you turned someone into the EPA for removing their Tractor's soot can, nothing would come of it.
 
   / branson 4720h cleaning radiator #40  
So you didn't read the document, did you?

That document, is for manufacturers, importers and companies that "introduce engines or vehicles into commerce".

End of story.

Anyone else is welcome to read the document for themselves. I recommend reading the entire document.

I am done with you.
 

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