Boy, but I hate poor engineering!

thcri · May 27, 2004

Sittin on an airplane somewhere over Chicago I was talking to this guy and I asked him what he did. He had a name for it but I can't remember what it was. But basically he was an engineers---engineer. He was independent and was working on one of the major automakers. His job is take a vehicle and re-engineer it after the automakers engineer designed it. You see most engineers to protect their reputation will over design stuff. So manufactures will come back and cut them down some to stay competitive. Just thought that was interesting and when something breaks, don't blame the engineer at first, blame the engineer's -- engineer. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gifDid I say that right?? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

murph

Soundguy · May 28, 2004

I think that would be some sort of cost control consultant.

Lovely world isn't it.... Engineer something with a safety margin.. and then have someone find out just how much you can back it down, and whittle away at it so that it won't fly apart untill after the owner peels the 'do not remove' sticker off the front of it voiding the warranty...

Soundguy

have_blue · May 28, 2004

I used to love the stuff our maintenance department fabricated. The top maintenance guy would draw it up and hand the drawing to his fabricators without anyone nit-picking the cost. What always resulted was BULLET PROOF stuff. Everything was double or triple strong, and would last a lifetime. They would use 3/8 steel on a simple table top when 1/8 would have been fine. Luckily we had plenty of good fork lifts.

It would be interesting to see what cars and TRACTORS would look like if the designer's plans were built exactly as he envisioned, before the cost control buzzards pecked away at them.

nomad · May 28, 2004

( I am not an engineer Nomad.

Egon )

You speak as if you are engineer because your words are too technical. It isn't the diploma/certificate that makes you an engineer - it's the words mowed by the tongue, raked by the teeth, baled by the lips and discharged out of the mouth that makes you an engineer.

Egon · May 28, 2004

You only call yourself an engineer if you have paid your dues. I haven't and I'm not an engineer.

Egon

normde2001 · May 28, 2004

"I haven't and I'm not an engineer. "
No matter what your bio says?

Egon · May 28, 2004

My bio does not say I am an engineer with a Bsc from an accredited university.
A teck and power may have the term assciated with them but by no means are they an engineer.
I'm just a regular grunt with dirty hands.

Egon

have_blue · May 28, 2004

There are "engineers" and "Engineers". All men are engineers. Some more so than others, some lots more so than others. I have known some Engineers that couldn't find their **** with both hands. I have known some engineers that amazed me every day with their pure genius. Formal training merely helps you fully understand and communicate your ideas. It does not give you ideas or greatly enhance your native ingenuity.

To20Chris · May 28, 2004

Well said!

AndyM · May 28, 2004

There are "engineers" and "Engineers". 

There are some people who have had no formal training, but have the mindset of an engineer.

I've only met Henro in real life just once, but I don't think he worked at the steel mill as an engineer. However, his mind works better than many engineers I work with. /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif It's pretty neat to watch someone look at something, and see it from many, many different angles! /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

No matter how much someone may insist that Egon was educated as an engineer, he's not in title, but he is in his mindset and his ways of thinking. Egon has given excellent advice to many of us over the past few years here. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Egon · May 28, 2004

Ahh shuckings ehh Andy. You musta missed the P51 fiasco of several hours ago.

But thank you muchly. Need all the help I can get.

Egon /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Egon · May 28, 2004

The formal training may offer some tools to augment the native abilities. It may also form a standard frame of reference.

Egon

Taylortractornut · May 28, 2004

When i worked as a machinist and fabricator after college I ran into alot of engineers that would draw a print out and have all sots of dimensions and there was no way to build it right. We had a fixture for a saw that had to fit in a 42 inch space but the internal parts dimensions measured 52 inches. Ive also had them do the same on dirt moving jobs. I often would rather solve the problem from the start I like to hands on stuff myself. I worked with a 65 year old engineer that had worked for R.G. LeTourneau and told of stories where Mr. Letourneau would take a tape measure out and a few few lay out tools and solve engineering problems on the floor of the the shop. My friend said that always stuck with him and helped him through alot of desgns. He also stated how cost was now the factor in many designs. I worked for a hydraulic pump company out of college that made hydraulic pumps and their engineers had alot of problems with their pumps and motors because they were trying to save too much money on new molds and other parts used in making the housings. It is sad to think about the cost vs quality policy some companies are using now.

_RaT_ · May 28, 2004

Are we talking about the guys that drive trains?

Soundguy · May 29, 2004

Don't laugh.. A friend and myself had a job waiting on us with CSX.. cross country stuff. We were one day away from going.. but signed up for college instead when our parents flipped out.

Soundguy

Egon · May 29, 2004

No trains although I have worked for Canadian Pacific Railway as a surveyor- draftsman [ ink on velum with nibbed pens] Does that kinda date me.

It referfers to Stationary Power Engineering as in steam plants.

Egon

mrcaptainbob · May 30, 2004

Ink on vellum with nibbed pens! Wow! Thanks for bringing back that memory! After 34 years in the auto industry, I found the best engineers were the ones with the dirt under their nails. There's a lot to be said for theory and books. There's so much to add from hands on experience.

nomad · May 30, 2004

"Experience" is a different concept in some fields than the concept of "Experience" we know in our daily life. Experience in technology & science is nothing without the knowledge of theory. This is so due to educational system in the world. If you are educated/learnt yourself independent of the education system in the world, then we can discuss about the worth of experience. Otherwise, you are experienced of the current knowledge given by current education system with all its mistakes/errors/etc. If, say, the engine piston is designed wrong, you will have to be an experienced person on that wrong designed piston. Experience is worth only in our daily life. In science/technology, theories & books limit you - experience is keeping these theories & books in your mind. A good engineer remembers these well. The best engineer creates new things by realizing the errors in theories & books. The latters are rare, very rare.

RoyJackson · May 30, 2004

"There's a lot to be said for theory and books. There's so much to add from hands on experience. "

How true!
Downside of a lack of experience is the engineer can develop designs without manufacturability (or maintanability) in mind.

It's a sad fact, but a lot of engineers never get to the shop floor to really get a grasp on their trade.

CAD makes it worse if they're not experienced. I see a lot of this working in Quality Assurance/Control. I'm working as a Quality Engineer right now, but started off as a floor inspector (machining, mostly with stamping and a fair amount of injection molding in the back ground).

"We had a fixture for a saw that had to fit in a 42 inch space but the internal parts dimensions measured 52 inches"

That's referred to as a dimensional stack up. That's also why one sees (in the title block of the drawing) a Designer and a Checker then approvals. All too often, the checker's job is just lip service.

As far as CAD..I love it for the ease of design, but it follows that old adage: "To err is Human; but if you really want to screw up, use a computer..."

jinman · May 30, 2004

( the engineer can develop designs without manufacturability )

Roy, many years ago I taught electrical wire harness manufacturing and installation on the F-16. The harness installation drawings all showed harness routing without taking into consideration that there might be 20 or 30 runs of various diameters running through the same area. The only way to predict the lengths was by using a mockup. Even then, you had to be careful and build in allowances for variation. After spending megabucks to assemble an airplane and install a harness, if you come up 1" too short, things get a little tense. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

There are just some things that require more than engineering to ensure a correct fit. The human factors of using the same crew to do the job the same way each time is critical to high-tech products. As we used to say, "It's almost always something low-tech and simple that gets you." /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif