Borrow my tractor......

sewells · Dec 18, 2003

The law I'm talking about in NC extends even to paid admission events. I think such events do need to have a sign posted that tells people the law applies since I've seen signs to that effect at all the horse shows, etc. I've been to.

In any event, I got off on this tack because I just read a book by law professor from the University of Chicago, Richard Epstein I think is his name, titled Simple Rules for a Complex World. He makes a very strong case that the costs of our current approach will bankrupt (and corrupt) our system unless seriously reformed.

Thanks for the info,

Steve Wells

Toolite · Dec 19, 2003

"Hey, wait a minute. That's the way things used to be so how did we get to where we are today?"

I think the "ACLU" probably helped more than anything else!
Wayne

Junkman · Dec 19, 2003

( "Hey, wait a minute. That's the way things used to be so how did we get to where we are today?"

I think the "ACLU" probably helped more than anything else!
Wayne )

Nah..... all the lawyers have a hand in these things evolving. Since most state legislatures are made up of lawyers, there is not much interest in changing the way things are done. You might have to say, that they have a vested interest in keeping the other lawyers busy.... Sorry if this post steps over the line of "political" discussion.... /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Docsknotinn · Dec 19, 2003

I'm trying to be good /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif and non political. But that dog goned American Trial Lawyers Association /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif Politics, It might not be the worlds oldest profession but the results are the same /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif Now to take GolfGars off Track Track a little further off Track I sure wish we would do the same thing here ! Dave

BIGUN · Dec 19, 2003

I have found the old saying, “No good deed goes unpunished” to be true so many times, especially when loaning equipment or money.

I have found lending out something as simple as an axe or a torque wrench will likely result in it being broken. There is no way I would lend out my Kubota or any other expensive, complex piece of equipment. I might offer to do the work myself for some people, but then there is that old saying above. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I do not ask to borrow another man's equipment, but have accepted an offer on rare occasions. Years ago, right after building my new house, my next-door neighbor offered the use of his OLD Allis-Chalmers tractor and disc to level my yard. I accepted and after an hour or so of use the old engine started knocking under load. I idled it down and went to notify the owner. He said, don’t worry about it. I told him I though he ought to come have a look. The fan belt looked like it was the original, frayed and very lose. We suspected the engine was getting hot, no working temp gauge, so we tightened the belt slightly. That took care of the knocking. Someone unfamiliar with engines may have continued running his old tractor until it was damaged. It seemed he took pride in seeing how long he could run the old tractor without spending anything to maintain it.
Even though he probably wouldn’t have held me responsible if it had broke while I was using it, I am glad it didn’t.

slowrev · Dec 19, 2003

Doc,
Just have to post one comment on this "legal" angle of this thread. I don't like lawyers either but remember it takes someone else wanting to sue to get the lawyer to file the suit. So the lawyers are not fully to blame. The base blame falls upon a large part of the American population with the "nothing is my fault" attitude or looking for easy money. The lawyers just take advantage of and foster this attitude. If people took responsibility for their actions and the sometimes unfortunate results, we would have a lot less lawyers. Unfortunately we do need a few of them around.

Well another comment too about the actual loaning of my tractor. There are only a couple of well trusted friends that I will loan my stuff out to. These are good friends that will fix what they break, or at least buy the parts and help me fix it.
These friends have more experience than I with tractors and take care of their tractors/tools.

jpr62902 · Dec 19, 2003

I'll say it again. If someone recovers $ from a personal injury lawsuit, its typically because at least 6 out of 8 jurors (our peers) believed the injured person should recover $ for their damages. We could go on and on about "silver-tongued devil lawyers" and how they manipulate naive, susceptible juries (did I mention juries are made up of our peers?), but in reality, we all know who's really to blame here -- tractors without ROPS, Greenpeace, red meat, cigarettes, PETA and last but not least -- McDonald's! These things are the roots of all evils in our world! (Of course this is tongue in cheek)

That said, I'm not a big fan of ATLA either and I'm all for personal accountability, but c'mon people. It ain't all my fault. /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Junkman · Dec 19, 2003

PETA.....People Eating Tastier Animals ?? /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

jpr62902 · Dec 19, 2003

"PETA.....People Eating Tastier Animals"

I LOVE that one ...

Docsknotinn · Dec 21, 2003

yeah I suppose we need to keep a few of em around. Its hard to appreciate any thing other than a rat if the rat doesnt exist. reminds me of that old John Wayne saying...." This is a rat writ write for a rat and lawfull service of the same ! " . No doubt we live in a society full of sewage. Clearly some one must be to blame beacuse I'm short fat and bald. No doubt I can find a few rats to sue mom and dad, Mckyd's and uncle sam, After all my hair never grew back right after they shaved it off for the service /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Dave

dieselsmoke1 · Dec 21, 2003

Hopped on this morning, first time since "borrow my tractor". Pretty cool here this morning, mid 20's but fired right up and while it was warming I was checking everything over. What? The FEL will not go down. Up, Roll fine but no down. Not a hose or a bind, no pump strain, the joystick literally would not go into the down position, and I tried.

I cursed myself with the "no good deed goes unpunished" speech. Since my work was with the 3pt anyway I left it there to warm up. Went back about 5 minutes later, FEL works fine. Tried it a couple more times today, always fine. Something in the joystick valve body would not let it actuate the FEL down position till the fluid warmed up.

This was the first really chilly morning I cranked it. It's not a problem, tractor needs to warm anyway.

Anyone know if this is by design or fluke?

shvl73 · Dec 23, 2003

I haven't had that problem & I've only been using mine for blowing snow lately. It's possible I just haven't noticed, I usually start it up, raise the bucket & hitch, back out of the barn & let it warm up outside. Next time I use it, I'll try to lower the bucket right away & post my results.

PerryWhite · Dec 25, 2003

As soon as I bought my JD 4310 with 430 FEL this spring
an acquaintance at work thought that I owed him the
privilege of letting him use it to put in his new 2nd garage
so he could move dirt and use the loader to put rafters into
place. I checked with my insurance agent and it turns out
my tractor is not insured unless it is used on my property.
Well this guy at work has $30k in credit card debt, put a 2nd
mortgage on his house and was only able to get $5500 equity
out to build his garage. He has three elementary school kids, a college educated wife who doesn't work. He brags that if he needs to he can always file for bankruptcy.
My answer, sorry my tractor isn't insured and doesn't leave my property. /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif
Oh I forgot... Two years ago when I bought an 1997 F150
pickup he thought that I should loan it to him to drive 800 miles one way to Kansas so he can bring back a couple
of pine logs from his Dad's place. This guy has no common sense.

Zork · Dec 25, 2003

Could it be frozen moisture/ water?

Junkman · Dec 25, 2003

( ........................ This guy has no common sense.
)

He has a lot of common sense. He knows how to try to use people.... he just has no scruples. You are very benevolent to even refer to him as an aquantince... I would just refer to him as a "leach"...... one that is to be avoided at all costs.

keeney · Dec 26, 2003

I tend to loan out my stuff freely to buddies I can trust not to hurt themselves or sue me. There is a price to be paid, though. There is always wear and tear. It always seems like you need what they borrowed 2 hours after you gave it to them. Nobody ever gets projects done when they think/say they are going to, so it always takes longer to get it back.

Being nice always has a price - if it didn't there wouldn't be much of a sacrifice involved, would there? However, it makes me feel good to be able to help my buddies out so I am happy to do it.

Some of my buddies are most excellent at returning things promptly, clean, and without any hassle to me.

Those same buddies loan stuff back to me without a thought because they know that I would always do the same.

Although I am not a stickler for keeping my own tools spit polished, (I do maintain them, but the the oil inside is always cleaner than the outside). However when I borrow something, it always goes back cleaner, n better shape than when I got it. If it gets damaged, it gets fixed or replaced. I don't just offer to pay for the repairs, I take it in, order the parts, whatever. Why would one add inconvenience to the insult of returning a broken tool by having the owner have to spend their own time to fix it?

Blades, bits, fuel, and other consumables are always returned sharper, newer or fuler than what was on the tool when I got it, often with an upgraded brand or quality.

When borrowing, if the owner asks about it or reminds me that I still have it, etc , I load it up and take it back to them immediately even if I am still in need of it or its not really convenient for me to drive over - I would hate to make the owner have to come and get it!

However, unprompted, I am afraid to admit that I am one of those borrowers that tends to sit on things until prompted. Something I need to work on.

Regarding my tractor I have only loaned implements so far - mostly because I don't have a large enough trailer to easily transport it. Has not been an issue of any significance.

I have loaned out my utility trailer on numerous occasions. I have a bit of a liability concern on that one because the deck is kind of rotting out and somebody might put their foot through a soft spot - I guess I should get it fixed before somebody else needs it again.

I have loaned my pickup truck on a few occasions as well. Mostly back when I was single to some woman I was dating (or their rommate) who had to pick up some furniture they bought or something. All my guy buddies of course already have trucks of their own!

- Rick

Theowegian · Dec 27, 2003

Excellent post Keeney (Rick). I wish all my buddies were as thoughtful as you.
I have to agree, that my pals are typically very good pals and I would do most anything for them. On the other hand I havent ever been "burned" by them either....But I would never ask someone to use their tractor or lawn mower or pickup truck, etc. I guess my rule of thumb is that if my pals are likely making payments on it, I would never presume to "borrow" it!
dwight

keeney · Dec 27, 2003

I am not sure I have ever been in the situation of borrowing anything I couldn't afford to replace if it got damaged or lost. I am also pretty sure the person I was borrowing it from wouldn't be financially destroyed by its loss, either, so the situation was not as stressful as it could be. Same thing in reverse for most of the stuff that goes between me and my buddies.

I have loaned things to people I know could not afford to fix or repair it if it was lost or damaged, and I have uneasy feelings about doing it because I wouldn't want to stress them out worrying about it. I usually tell them its insured, or it isn't that expensive, etc. It has never been an actual problem.

In the case where a person was asking somebody to loan them something the person needed to make a living, and the person being asked really couldn't afford to be without it, and the person asking couldn't afford to replace it, that sounds like a recipe for killing a friendship real fast.

- Rick

Junkman · Dec 28, 2003

I loaned my Minneapolis Moline tractor to a friend right after I had rebuilt the engine. He didn't watch the oil level while he was using it and the oil level got low and the engine spun a bearing. Being that he wasn't mechanically inclined, he just took it to a shop to have it repaired and didn't want to tell me about it being damaged. The shop told him that the crankshaft was trashed and beyond repair and would need to have a replacement engine installed. After about 8 or 10 months, I started to pester him to return the tractor and that is when he told me what had happened to the tractor. I went to the place that he had left it for repair and they told me that the tractor was sold for the repair bill because my friend didn't come for it when it was finished. I informed the shop that I wanted to see proof of the court order to sell the tractor as provided by state law. That is when they got nasty and told me to get off the property. He had told me that they kept telling him the tractor wasn't ready. I knew that at that point that someone was not telling me the truth, but didn't know for sure who. I went to the local police department and made a report of stolen property. They investigated and found out that the tractor was sold to someone in my home town in CT. The shop was located in MA, so the local police in MA couldn't do any more for me. I contacted the person that had purchased the tractor and told him what had happened and that he was in possession of stolen property. I then went home and notified the CT Police who in turn contacted the MA police to get the facts. When the CT police went to where the tractor was located, they learned that it had been brought it back to the shop in MA . The "purchaser" wanted to stay clear of any problems and the easiest way was to get rid of the tractor. This effectively removed the CT Police from the case. Once it was back at the shop, the owner demanded $3000 for the repair that was originally quoted at $1000 for the used engine including installation. It took another 6 months and the filing of criminal and civil charges before the shop would let me have it. In the end, it cost me $1500 plus the legal fees to get my tractor back. My "friend" gave me $500 of the money and a promise to pay the rest "over a period of time". I haven't seen him since and that was 6 years ago.

JDgreen227 · Dec 28, 2003

Junkman,

I am sorry to learn of that experience where you let a so called friend borrow your tractor. Any TBN members who are tempted to lend equipment should heed your advice. As for me, although I have a huge collection of tools and other mechanical toys, the people I know who might borrow them are also smart enough not to ask in the first place. Lucky me.