Boating idiots

[daugen]

1-year-old who became sick at sea picked up by U.S. Navy - CNN.com

I've been boating for about twenty years. Now I'm back down to a sixteen footer.
I was also a yacht broker in Ft. Lauderdale for three years while I took time off from wearing a suit.
So while I am primarily a powerboater, I do know something about sailboats, different models etc.

And I gotta tell you, crossing the Pacific in a 36 foot boat is seriously risky, and taking a one year old baby with you?
As often as kids get sick? Truly risking a catastrophe and I'm glad their baby is ok now.

I bet it cost over a hundred thousand dollars, maybe multiples of that, for our folks in uniform to respond.
And risk their lives doing it.

I see this as sheer stupidity and fervently wish these sailors would be charged with the bill of rescuing them.
They knowingly went in high risk's way, and now fa la la the taxpayers have to pay the consequences?

Anyone can get behind the wheel of a boat and literally head out anywhere, with zero experience and capability. That changes I believe around 60 feet in length or larger.
This family is in a 36 foot boat. It looks heavily built but it's still a monohull and not too new from the looks of it.
A thirty to fifty foot wave is not uncommon in a Pacific storm. Think Perfect Storm half size.

They have a right to do it. You bet. Even risking their children's lives. They would probably say we all do that driving
down the interstate on a family vacation.

Just seems unreasonable to be free AAA for these people.
We do have a deficit, right?

 

[brin]

I'm glad to pay my part to save the baby....risk is everywhere in our lives....

 

[dave1949]

I'm glad to pay my part to save the baby....risk is everywhere in our lives....

I have to agree with Drew. They took unreasonable risks and we pay for it unless they plan on writing a check to the USCG. No check, it's just another version of welfare paid to someone who made poor choices. Sort of like a high school drop-out single parent with no job on welfare. What's the difference, really? Do people with boats get a pass? How big does the boat need to be to get the pass?

I really doubt that it is more dangerous to get on the freeway than to attempt to cross the Pacific in a small boat with very young children.

 

[Buckgnarly]

Why would you even go with a one year old? The kid gets nothing from the experience but risk. If you want to be a parent maybe it's time to give up or postpone some adventurous things you enjoy and be a PARENT.

 

[KubotaToy]

Why would you even go with a one year old? The kid gets nothing from the experience but risk. If you want to be a parent maybe it's time to give up or postpone some adventurous things you enjoy and be a PARENT.

What he said!

 

[RoyJackson]

I haven't seen a picture of the sail boat, but a 36 foot boat would be quite adequate if designed for serious sailing (meaning, among other things, a strong hull, small ports (windows) a small cockpit, and robust rigging, etc) and is outfitted with solid heavy weather gear. If you read about folks who have done extensive world sailing, you'll know what I mean.
However, I'm not so sure about the wisdom of taking a one year old either...

Update: Just looked at the type of boat...a Hans Christian 36 with a cutter rig. Definitely a well founded sail boat for off shore or round the world cruising.
HANS CHRISTIAN 36 sailboat specifications and details on sailboatdata.com

 

[Loren49]

I may be a bit partial as I have sailed for over 30 years with about 28 years on a 27 ft sailboat. Most has been on Lake Ontario but have been on the big pond a few times. We traveled out St Laurence River and around Nova Scotia and then back to NY Harbor. Also traveled down East Coast twice to Florida Keys and across Gulf Stream to the Bahamas. (about 12,000 miles at 5 knots)

Every time I travel by car I meet someone going 60 mph in the opposite direction than my 60 mph. (When in midwest its 70 mph) http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811552.pdf In 2010 over 2.2 million injured and nearly 33,000 dead. (outside car 8000 injured and 182 dead)

A well founded and equipped vessel with a competent crew is quite safe. Check statistics on powerboat deaths which often are caused by excessive speed and alcohol. Should parents allow children in cars or fast boats?

I don't know the details of how well this vessel and crew were prepared but it sounds like it wasn't their first offshore trip. Sounds likeaLyra had suffered salmonella poisoning before the family set out, but doctors had given her a clean bill of health to travel, her aunt Sariah Kay English said.

English initially was in daily email contact with the family but realised something was wrong when the communication stopped several days ago. English said she was told the vessel took on water every time the motor was turned on.

When her sister first mentioned plans to sail with two young children, English recalled, "I thought it was nuts."

But English said the couple were always careful. Eric Kaufman is a coastguard-licensed captain who introduced sailing to his future wife during one of their early dates.

"They were not going into this blind. I knew they were doing this wisely," English said. The couple made a network of friends who traveled around the globe with children, and always stocked the boat with more food than they needed.

"They were very overcautious. They're not new at sailing." Unfortunately, she said, "sickness sometimes happens". problem flared up after a doctor on shore gave the child a clean bill of health. US navy rescues sick baby from stricken boat 900 miles out to sea | World news | theguardian.com


As to the cost - how much more money was spent because of this rescue. Was any new equipment needed and did this rescue take the place of some other training. Government money is regularly spent for people who chose to live in high risk areas. ex. wildfires. coast home flooding, living below sea level or on sand spits.

These parents aren't idiots...just living their lives. I want to be part of a society that would try to save the child. If we each give a dollar we could cover a cost of 325 million.

Loren

 

[dave1949]

They are starting to charge for rescuing hikers around here that get lost or stuck in inclement weather in the White Mtns. if they feel it was a situation that could be avoided. Too many people go hiking ill-prepared and use their cell phone to call for help when they get in trouble. They charge to haul snowmobiles and cars out of lakes that have fallen through the ice. If people had used good sense, their vehicle wouldn't be in the lake.

The issue isn't should the family have been helped, of course we should help people in need. The issue is, is there a penalty for unnecessarily putting oneself in a position to need help?

If enough small boats and people were put on the water to cross the Pacific, to be equivalent to the people-miles traveled on the freeway, we would need a much larger Coast Guard.

 

[daugen]

Update: Just looked at the type of boat...a Hans Christian 36 with a cutter rig.

I couldn't tell who made it but looking at the gunwales it was surely not made to be a dock queen. Yes, a heavy blue water cruiser. As in perhaps to the Bahamas or up the coastline or to island skip. But to cross an ocean? You first Roy.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

I'm not judging, all I can say is regardless of how confident I was in my abilities, that's the last thing I would do with my children.

 

[nc redneck]

Its very easy to get a Captains License. A lot of guys do it here so they can sell tuna and use there boat as a business. And they only go 50 miles or so offshore. My questions would be any true offshore boat should have multiple back up communication systems. Also the ability to find out why the engine is dumping water in the bilge, spare parts on board and the ability to repair it. If all else fails crash pumps where you can quickly turn a few valves and engine sucks raw water into cooling pump or pumps. 2 engines and 2 separated sources of fuel with filters are the standard also.
I would suggest a standard deductible of $ 25000.00 to $ 100,000.00 or more would end a lot of these adventures and unneeded risks. 100 K will not even put a dent in the true costs of these type of rescues on land or ocean. Helicopters and Navy ships cost a lot to operate.
As said before, We do have a deficit.

 

[daugen]

here's a solution, sort of. Want to go more than 12 miles out? or some number...
post a $100K financial responsibility bond payable to the CG/Navy.
Not sure any insurance policy other than specialized foreign country medical/emergency evac would pay for this.
I really don't think Boat US, etc, is going to pay. Interesting to look up.
Of course that bond would likely cost 1% and folks would sure squawk over that. Until they started yelling Mayday and then
price is no object.

NC Red: when i took my own boat over to the Bahamas: twin engines, crash pumps, three vhf, two gps, twin selectable fuel tanks, etc.
case of Racor spares, spare water pump, spare this, spare that. And I still was nervous. And I was pulling a sixteen foot double console I could hop onto if need be.
So much can go wrong.
Just ask any cruise ship captain...

 

[nc redneck]

Daugen
My point exactly. You will never call the Coast Guard unless many things break one after another and weather changes. You are well prepared and have multiple back up systems. I can almost guarantee you will never put out a SOS.
100 K deductible would make a lot more people think like you.
I wonder what Sea Tow would charge for this job ? I doubt they could or would even touch it.

 

[daugen]

the sailor captain's skills are likely very high; I do wonder if he has tried a long sea voyage by himself before testing it out on his family.
Has he even been out in seriously bad weather with his family, close to home, so he has experience and procedures with dealing with it?
Tethering lines, where do the kids go, how to inflate a life raft when the boat is heaving in thirty foot waves. You just don't set out and figure it out as it
goes. That just seems irresponsible to me. I'm ignorant of the captain's skills, though I continue to question his judgment no matter what.

I guess if everyone thought like I do we'd never have gotten to the Moon.

Perhaps it's just that I overreact when I see little children put in danger. Adults, do what you want.

 

[Loren49]

Boat insurance policies are location specific, ex Fresh water only, east coast from Maine to Florida and 5 miles offshore, etc. Many world cruisers as self insured. Coast guard saves people, not boats. How much do we spend to save people traveling in relatively dangerous nations?

Just as suggested, a charge to rescue people who put themselves in dangerous places and are not properly prepared makes good sense. To classify everyone who chooses to do something you don't appreciate or understand as not properly prepared is questionable.

Offshore life rafts inflate with the pull of a lanyard by compressed air(?) cylinder. Implying that these parents weren't adequately prepared is not justified unless you've have facts. Most offshore boats (probably all) carry extensive first aide and medical supplies including antibiotics. I carry these when coastal cruising. A breakdown and an unexpected illness in combination just happened. (I guess I'm assuming they maintained the boat). As to boat size, many much smaller and less well constructed vessels have circumnavigated safely.

Loren

 

[dmccarty]

I happen to "know" the captain of the boat that got into trouble. "Know" meaning I have been reading his posts on a cruising related forum.

This guy and his wife knew what they were doing, he is one of the more knowledgeable posters on the website and I pay attention to what he has to say. They have been cruising for almost a decade and have been in Mexico waiting to cross to the south Pacific islands.

Their boat is more than big enough to cross oceans. One of the The Books on Storm Tactics at sea is written by a couple who had been sailing since the 70's. The boats mentioned in their books were between 25-29 feet and they have spent a lifetime sailing around the world. A couple of times and they have been in some very bad storms that most cruisers will not experience. They built a boat at one time and it was the one around 29 feet. I would have built larger but larger is not always a good thing on sail boats since it can get harder to handle more and larger sails.

If I won the Lottery, I would buy an passage making power boat from the Dashews. SetSail ｻ FPB 64

I can't afford the boat since I have read it costs around $3 million. :shocked::laughing::laughing::laughing: I have been reading their website because it has some very good boating information and they have some very interesting videos on YouTube. I would guess that Steve and Linda Dashew are in their 60s or 70s. There are movies on YouTube where Steve's father bought/built a wood boat, loaded up the family and went sailing. In the 1950's. There are pictures of Steve at the age of 7 learning how to use a sextant and navigate. Steve and Linda raised their children on boats as have many others. I wish we could sail of with the kids but that is not in the cards.

I would bet, that as a percentage, far more children are killed/hurt in cars than when cruising the oceans. Furthermore, I bet more kids are hurt/killed with tractors than when cruising. Lets not even talk about lawn mowers.

From the reports I have read the kid got sick and it sounds like measles or chicken pox. We do not have the whole story because the actual participants have not been able to talk. All information is third hand and mostly filtered by the press and we know how "accurate" the press can be. I would have expected the family to have been carrying antibiotics on the boat but what they had may not have been working. The boat issues in the press may have been overblown. The question regarding loss of steering may have been the auto pilot but people who know the family and were living in the marina in Mexico with them said they had a very good auto pilot on board. Loss of the auto pilot is a PITA but not the end of the world.

Water leaking when running the engine could be a few things but may or may not have been a big deal. In any case, they are a sail boat with limited fuel capacity so they could not power for long. It sounded like they were running the engine into the trade winds to get closer to North America since they would have had a tough time beating into the wind under sails.

Anything can fail and the only people that know what failed, why and how critical, are on a ship at the moment.

Some of the information is from the wife's onshore family but take it with a grain of salt. The wife and at least one of her sisters were molested by their father. Two of the sisters went public with this information while other family members wanted to keep this secret. This has created a split in the family and one of the brothers criticizing the wife/mother on the boat seems to have been against the family secrets being made public. He did not go see his sister and family off when they left port in the US which is telling.

This cost the taxpayer nothing that was not already budgeted. The PJ's unit would have spent the fuel practicing and instead they got to do it for real. Though why they had to jump FOUR PJs is interesting. That is a small boat for six adults and two kids. Lets talk about Heros for a second. People use the H E R O word for people who play ball games. Those PJ's jumped out of a perfectly fine aircraft which is bad enough. But they jumped into the WATER which aint real safe. Why? To help out someone else. They risked their lives and they are Heros. Frankly, I could jump out of the perfectly working aircraft and I am dumb enough to do it into water. That would be fun. But after watching how PJs train which involves running around poking each other with needles and IVs, tain't no way I can be a PJ. Too many needles being jabbed into me and other people. :laughing::laughing::laughing:

The only government "loss" might be the Vandegrift depending on what she was doing but the pittance spent on the rescue is nothing compared to the huge waste in Government. This is one place were our tax money is well spent.

The people on the cruising web site/community are something else. They have started a fund to help out the family financially and there was a group of people organizing an effort to get the boat if it was abandoned. Turns out the boat was sunk/scuttled.

If we had the money and our kids were YOUNGER, we would head off to sea in a heart beat. They kids would learn a great deal about the oceans, fishing, weather, geography, navigation, stars, other cultures, languages, etc. The kids would learn how to handle a boat, sail, and mechanical skills. The confidence they would build helping plot courses, navigate and pilot the boat is nothing compared to what I can give them on land. What we would experience boating around the work simply cannot compare to what we can do on land.

I feel sorry for the Rebel Heart crew. They have lost their boat which is their home and their way of life.

Later,
Dan

 

[daugen]

well said Dan. I spent ten years as a very active volunteer fireman in my small home town and I honestly understand what it's like, and why it is so important,
for one person to put themselves at great risk to rescue another. So the mission and the excellent execution of the Navy is not questioned, bravo for a great job.
Yes, a good training exercise.

Ok, I'll soften my approach, I think it is warranted. And as a fellow boater, I do sympathize that they lost their boat. Maybe, just maybe, this experience will save their lives someday.

Seventeen years ago I met my late wife through a local newspaper ad (pre internet) that went something like Captain seeks First Mate for a life of love and adventure.
And boy was she good on that boat; we went everywhere because I had someone I could rely on. But what happens when the person you rely on is totally distracted by a very young child who just banged her head in a roll, and Mom can't hear Dad yelling to do something critical and things go bad quickly.
Or Mom can't take the wheel so Dad can go down in the engine room and fix why their only engine died, the boat gets sideways in a big wave and flips over.
I bet I could make up a ton of dangerous situations and none of it will matter.

We go down to the sea in ships...
I get it.

 

[joshuabardwell]

From the reports I have read the kid got sick and it sounds like measles or chicken pox. We do not have the whole story because the actual participants have not been able to talk. All information is third hand and mostly filtered by the press and we know how "accurate" the press can be. I would have expected the family to have been carrying antibiotics on the boat but what they had may not have been working.

Measles and chicken pox are both viral illnesses, not bacterial. Antibiotics won't affect them at all. Basically, they only treatment for most viral illnesses is supporting care to manage the side effects (temperature, dehydration, aches and pains) while the body's natural defenses take care of the pathogen.

 

[dodge man]

Nice post Dcmcarthy, its nice to hear from someone that knows what they are talking about.