Black pipe or galvanized for shop air lines?

[Scrambler82]

In my system the tees are mounted in the up position to reduce the moisture from entering the branch lines. It is harder for the moisture to go up.
Also the end of each branch has a drain positioned 12 to 14 inches below the actual chuck mounting position and the chucks are mounted above the drains off of tees with a 90 and approximately 6 inches of pipe then another 90 to position the chucks upward and outward.

Each time you branch out you go up allowing any moisture in the air to drain back and down.

One more thing, although my old system was and new will be rubber lines, the end of the lines/drains/chuck mounting is all 1/2" pipe, iron. Although the ball valves are brass/nylon.

Sorry,if this is confusing.

Any questions ask.

blackdog2086, what did you do for air lines ?

 

[dragoneggs]

Hope you get better soon.

Ha ha Murph... admittedly I have issues!

 

[94BULLITT]

What kind of shut off's are you guys using? I am using 1/4 turn ball valve shut offs. I have problems with them leaking internally and externally.

 

[blackdog2086]

In my system the tees are mounted in the up position to reduce the moisture from entering the branch lines. It is harder for the moisture to go up.
Also the end of each branch has a drain positioned 12 to 14 inches below the actual chuck mounting position and the chucks are mounted above the drains off of tees with a 90 and approximately 6 inches of pipe then another 90 to position the chucks upward and outward.

Each time you branch out you go up allowing any moisture in the air to drain back and down.

One more thing, although my old system was and new will be rubber lines, the end of the lines/drains/chuck mounting is all 1/2" pipe, iron. Although the ball valves are brass/nylon.

Sorry,if this is confusing.

Any questions ask.

blackdog2086, what did you do for air lines ?

Nothing yet. I'm still in Afghanistan, but should be home and working on setting up my barn/shop by late summer or early fall. I don't get to check the site as often as I'd like, but I'm still reading responses and weighing my options.

I'm learning about different set ups from all the posts, and not just what to use, but how to install it for the most useful and efficient shop possible. Thanks to all for the info and suggestions.

 

[ultrarunner]

What kind of shut off's are you guys using? I am using 1/4 turn ball valve shut offs. I have problems with them leaking internally and externally.

I like the 1/4 turn valves with the full size port...

Milton S1094-6 Full Port Brass Ball Valve, 3/8" x 3/8" Female NPT, 260 PSI @ 210

 

[drizler]

All I used was a threaded to solder adapter on a cheap garden hose house bib from Lowes .. I think each one cost 4 bucks or less. Nothing special needed as it's only water and air. Mine have held up nicely over the years. I don';t get this T thing. It has to go at the top with the drip leg down and the drain at the bottom. That way the droplets pushing along the pipe fall into something to stop them. The TIP company (sandblasters) has or did have a very nice simple diagram on how to set this up and that's the design I used.
I will tell you this though, if you think it's gonna get out all the moisture, especially on hot summer days think again! Mine works ok but even with an 8' vertical off the tank and 30' of nice copper with a drop in the middle and near the end it's not all that great. I get more water from the end one than the middle which tells me it's condensing further down the line for the most part. What you really need and I have yet to build is a CONDENSER like the industrial rigs use. That way you are pulling the moisture out of the air BEFORE it gets into the tank instead of the compressor using the tank as a condenser . There are several on youtube which you can make, some simpler than others.

 

[ultrarunner]

I need clean/dry air so the compressor has a finned loop to the tank, the tank has an auto drain valve, the air goes to a dryer with condensate drain and then through a 150' of 1" copper to a regulator with water trap and drain and then to a 2 micron filter with water trap...

The idea is if water makes the 150' there is a problem on the compressor/dryer side.

I had to have it all permitted and inspected and next month will be 20 years of operation 24/7

So far the weak link has been the pressure switch on the compressor... about 5 years is max for the electrical contacts...

 

[drizler]

View attachment 409294


This is the diagram from the TIP website. It's buried in with the Air Piping System content. I did mine like they did and come to think of it I did go up and over to form the drip loop. It will give you a tad more water retention feeding the drop and won't add much to the cost. Every little bit helps although as I said before it won't do crap for the uncondensed moist air, just the condensed real water rolling along the line. Also the more twists and turns in your system the less air flow so you probably want 3/4 lines or more.
The real answer is that condenser back BEFORE the tank. An air conditioning condenser from a big truck or refrigerator works well. Many homemade rigs use a nice big box fan like Wallyworld sells for 17 bucks which sits behind it and is powered off the electric of the air compressor. Anything to knock down that heated moisture laden air BEFORE it gets to that nice big cool tank to drop out. I'm also sure your tank life will go up greatly too.
Anyways that tip diagram is easy to use to work into your potential plans with your own specific modifications. One other thing I never knew for years till I got them . Get ye a set of those rather expensive high flow coupler. I got mine off AMAZON for around 20 bucks for two sets. Their female ends seem to work with my 3/8 Chinese cheapos fine. I keep one hose set up with the high flow on each end which I only use for high flow painting and air gun. Try it your air gun (unless it's chinese junk will show a difference. Some painter said they flow 12CFM which will power anything but heavy equipment air guns like 1" drives so they work as well as the dedicated huge 3/8 couplers that cost awfully. Amazon.com: Milton S-217 V Style Hi-Flow Coupler Kit: Automotive

 

[JRP]

No one seems to understand how a regulator affects moisture. A regulator is the cheapest moisture control you can get. A physics review on moisture in air is helpful.

1) . A volume of air at a temperature can hold only a certain amount of water vapor.

2. Compressing the air reduces the volume of air but does not reduce the amount of water present, so as soon as the water vapor reaches 100% humidity then free water droplets form.

3. Higher temperature air can hold more moisture.


So:

Cooling the air reduces the moisture the air can hold and causes more moisture to condense. Cool the air as much as possible before the air gets to the tank. A 150' copper condenser between the compressor and tank would be fantastic.


Once the cool 100%humidity air is in the tank all free water drains to the bottom. Easy to drain. If any free water is in the tank then the tank air humidity will be at 100% relative humidity.

Now the regulator. Take 1 gallon of tank air air at 150 PSI and 100% humidity, and expand it with a regulator so it is at 100 psi. It will occupy about 1.5 gallons of volume.

The larger volume of 100 psi air will be at about 60% relative humidity. There will be absolutely no free water droplets. You will never find water at your tools or end of line drain legs.


Run you compressor at a good high pressure, cool the air if possible, then regulate the air to just above the pressure you need to satisfy all users. To be effective, the regulator installed to minimize free water must be installed at the tank outlet, before the distribution piping.

If this is not clear, ask questions.


For in shop piping PEX with sharkbite fittings is superior to metal.


I'm an engineer at a chemical plant and support a very large air system with two 600 hp air compressors. about 200 acres of equipment. Two regulators at the receiver tank (5000 gallons), no moisture problems.

 

[mikehaugen]

Now the regulator. Take 1 gallon of tank air air at 150 PSI and 100% humidity, and expand it with a regulator so it is at 100 psi. It will occupy about 1.5 gallons of volume.

The larger volume of 100 psi air will be at about 60% relative humidity. There will be absolutely no free water droplets. You will never find water at your tools or end of line drain legs.

Doesn't this only apply if it has cooled all of the way to ambient? Otherwise it will cool more as it runs through the lines. Also the expansion of air AFTER the regulator will cool the air further anyway and force free water to condense in the piping.

I'd have to think there's a reason my plant just replaced their refrigerated drier for like $80k. Of course the screw compressors we use will only build about 100 psi so not much room to regulate down.

 

[Scrambler82]

Nothing yet. I'm still in Afghanistan, but should be home and working on setting up my barn/shop by late summer or early fall. I don't get to check the site as often as I'd like, but I'm still reading responses and weighing my options.

I'm learning about different set ups from all the posts, and not just what to use, but how to install it for the most useful and efficient shop possible. Thanks to all for the info and suggestions.

First thanks for for your service.
good idea to get things straight in your head before going the job and it give you something to think about !
I found the the rubber hose worked great and was easy to run, just keep a slight angle,to the main feed to drain back to the main tank where you will have a the main drain to bleed the system.
I used barbed fittings to pipe for all end of line connecting, standard screw hose clamps worked and easy to connect; the squeeze type clamps were a pain.
i started the main feed run by first planning where the branch line we're going to be, coiled out the hose ( again pressure rated hose - compressor max plus 50%...), cut the main hose adding the branch tee fittings. Mounted both ends pulled it tight and started wall mounting clamping, first in the center, then at the quarter points, then at the eighth points, watch for sagging in the line. If the line sags water can possibly build up so keep the line tight with no sags, add more wall clamps as necessary.
The branch line tees can be lessened and turned as needed once the main line is mounted.
I ran a main line down the center of the shop and branched off where I wanted air, I.e. Drill press, grinder, sandblasted, work benches and one for the outside, which never froze up.

Also, I use a commercial 1/4 turn ball valve for branch lines, main shut off and drains.
None of them leaked while I used them (sold that system before I sold my last house).
I have a few more that will be used on the new system once the new shop/barn is in place, try basic plumber type valves but they may leak because they are not rated for 150 or 175 psi.

Sorry got carried away again, I get started and don't know when to stop... now is a good time.

ltr

 

[ray66v]

Try it your air gun (unless it's chinese junk will show a difference. Some painter said they flow 12CFM which will power anything but heavy equipment air guns like 1" drives so they work as well as the dedicated huge 3/8 couplers that cost awfully. Amazon.com: Milton S-217 V Style Hi-Flow Coupler Kit: Automotive

We were switched to RBL high flow air fittings in the body shop about 15 years ago, on suggestion of our paint supplier.

I was painting full time, and spraying gallons of solid colors and spray sensitive metallic's every week.

If there was a difference in the performance of my Devilbiss GTI hvlp, (not cheap, or Chinese), with the high flow couplers, I would have noticed it. I never did.

They may make a difference with a different gun. But, they didn't with mine.


I repair pneumatic tools now. We test impact wrenches on a Skidmore torque tester, which gives an accurate assessment of output.

Testing tools, (new and used), on the Skidmore, with 10' air hoses, I found the following:

A 1/2" impact will produce it's maximum rated output on an ordinary 1/4" "M" style couplers, and a 3/8" hose. It does not need, or benefit from more volume.

A 3/4" impact will gain a 10% increase in power, using a 3/8" coupler, (Hanson 5000 series), on a 1/2" hose, over a 1/4" coupler on a 3/8" hose. A 3/8 hose, doesn't do it, on this size tool, and up. Especially if you have 50, or more feet of hose. You may find the results acceptable, but you are losing power. Especially, if you have a dirt filter at the tool, which is always a good idea, if you use them a lot.

With a 1" impact, the same will happen, if you go from a 3/8" coupler on a 1/2" hose, to a 1/2" hose, with a Dixon air king, full flow coupler. You gain about 10% more power.

I just rebuilt an 1-1/2" Impact, and it performed well, but actually wanted more air, than we could supply it with 1/2" hoses.

 

[Scrambler82]

It isn't my thread but a lot of info.
Thks for taking the time to post.

 

[drizler]

So:
Cool the air as much as possible before the air gets to the tank. A 150' copper condenser between the compressor and tank would be fantastic.



Ok since this particular subject is on my plate in the near future just what about that CONDENSER ? Can it be as simple as a 150' loop of copper tubing in coils say stuck on the wall? Or does it have to be more like a solar panel hot water heater with the copper pipes running up and down. to a bottom line which has a small catch tank below with a drain valve.. Then the line running to the tank itself? How about some specifics on rigging one of those. Also, from what I just heard about CFM flow in small tubing can you get away with something like good old 3/8 copper tubing and still get flow enough for the common shop tools?

 

[Fallon]

So:
Cool the air as much as possible before the air gets to the tank. A 150' copper condenser between the compressor and tank would be fantastic.



Ok since this particular subject is on my plate in the near future just what about that CONDENSER ? Can it be as simple as a 150' loop of copper tubing in coils say stuck on the wall? Or does it have to be more like a solar panel hot water heater with the copper pipes running up and down. to a bottom line which has a small catch tank below with a drain valve.. Then the line running to the tank itself? How about some specifics on rigging one of those. Also, from what I just heard about CFM flow in small tubing can you get away with something like good old 3/8 copper tubing and still get flow enough for the common shop tools?

A condenser is about surface area. The more surface area, the faster/better you bring the internal temperature down to the external temperature. Air conditioning gear is relevant as it's designed for high pressures & rapid cooling. A long bit of copper will work decently as well, although without fins to increase the surface area it won't be as effective per foot as a real condenser.

After looking for a cheap solution for a while I finally gave up and bought an intercooler designed just for this AKG Air Cooled Aftercooler, Max HP 15, 60 CFM - G3188306 at Zoro. I mounted it infront of the fan/flywheel on my 12cfm @100psi Kobalt compressor & plumbed it in with some hydraulic hose. Inlet of the inter-cooler is to hot to touch on the inlet side when I'm sandblasting, but still at ambient temperature on the outlet side, so it's working well. I have the inter-cooler between the compressor head & the tank, so when the unloader valve kicks in it takes a little while longer, but it purges the inter-cooler as well.

I'm getting a ton of water out when I drain the tank at the end of the day, but despite seeing some decent condensation on the filter bowl for the regulator coming out of the tank, I've not been able to get any water to drain out. After that I have about a 1 gallon descant filter that never sees any moisture. The RapidAir MaxLine metal/plastic line is working great, dam easy to install & safe. All the outlets have a drip leg & drain, although I've never seen anything come out of them when I drain them. I haven't bothered pointing the T on the mainline up either.

Personally I think if you properly cool & regulate things near the tank, you'll never end up with any moisture in the lines to deal with at all. Cool it down to drop a lot of the moisture carrying ability down in the tank, then regulate it a little to increase the moisture carrying capacity a bit after you've dumped most of the moisture out so it will pick up & contain any that might be hanging around.

 

[JRP]

Well said Fallon. For the regulator to work the air must be close to ambient temperature prior to the regulator.

About the regulator comments, yes we also have desiccant dryers for the "instrument" grade air, which is at -40f dewpoint. The regulator will not remove moisture, but keeps the dewpoint such that no free water droplets will form.

 

[ultrarunner]

I opted for the dryer, auto drain, etc because the air is used to power an ethylene oxide sterilizer in a hospital laboratory setting.

Boss came to me in 1996 and said the hospital is buying the sterilizer and left it up to me to make it work...

No issues so far except the pressure switch contactors do wear out every 5 years... ordered all Speedair components right out of the Grainger Catalog

Did I say how much I love auto drains???

PS... I went with 220 volt system in the off chance it might be surplus someday... have the perfect place for the whole shooting match in my shop...

 

[94BULLITT]

I like the 1/4 turn valves with the full size port...

Milton S1094-6 Full Port Brass Ball Valve, 3/8" x 3/8" Female NPT, 260 PSI @ 210

Thanks, those are similar to the ones I have. I have a American Standard on the compressor leaking externally. It has not been in the compressor long. I have a Watts at a drop off that leaks internally.

 

[SpringHollow]

It is unbelievable how much water my "Franzinator" removes. But I still get a little water in the subsequent black iron "U's" before it goes into the desiccant dryer. Only then does it go into my tank from which I never see water when I open the drain. There is a lot of ,moisture in the air here during the summer.

Ken

 

[drizler]

Just looking at the picture the Fallon posted of that commercial condenser I can't help but wonder one thing. It is almost exactly the same size as the generic pickup truck auxiliary auto tranny cooler i have hanging on my wall. What is to stop someone from soldering something like that in for the same effect. $170 seems pretty pricy for that small typical looking radiator.