Big Multi Year Project About to Begin...help!

[Iplayfarmer]

I spoke to the local road contractor... Fortunately he is pretty familiar with the area.

Being familiar with the area is going to be more important that decades of experience in unrelated geography and climate. It sounds like you're in good hands if you take this guy's advice.

 

[retiredmgn]

When we first moved to our little town in Maine there were lots of people building far off the beaten path then expecting the town to upgrade their road so the school bus could make it to their house. Proved a financial burden for the town so the Planning Board passed a 'Minimum Road Standard'. This stated before a building permit would be issued the road would have to be built to a minimum standard acceptable to the town. The point was, sure build off in the woods but don't expect the town to pay for your privacy.

 

[scottlw]

Good Luck.

This is a long thread but worth a read, im sure a fair amount will be relevant to you.

Going Off Grid in East Tennessee (motorhome, design, install) - (TN) - City-Data Forum

 

[dave1949]

David,
Sounds like you are on your way to having a good road. Good luck with the gravel!

I wish I had some on my land but none has ever turned up, if it did, it would probably be on the wrong side of the creek :laughing:

Keep the posts coming.
Dave.

 

[Sulla]

Went out to the property today with a surveyor and my tree guy. Road is going to be a bigger project than I had hoped. The grade is too step in a couple of areas to hold the gravel. Seems I need to level it off a bit. I'm off to the Ranger Station to see if the Forest Service will let me use and maintain their road instead. Best estimate on the road if I do it myself is $30,000 to $50,000 and a months work with my schedule.

I've always loved the Forest Service, really I have!

 

[MarkV]

I was afraid you would find that road very expensive. You also want to make sure whatever road you use will support fire service equipment or you may have trouble finding insurance when you build. That makes it a no go if you need to take out a mortgage.

MarkV

 

[Sulla]

I was afraid you would find that road very expensive. You also want to make sure whatever road you use will support fire service equipment or you may have trouble finding insurance when you build. That makes it a no go if you need to take out a mortgage.

MarkV

Yeah the road is turning out to be quite fun. Worst case I have to bite the bullet and do it. Not so bad as I as I was kinda of looking forward to it. I think it means I'll be renting an excavator instead of buying one.

Insurance is going to be a problem. I'm not sure there's a fire department for twenty miles. Our plan is to pay as we build and end up debt free, I have enough debt already.

Whatever we build will have a sprinkler system. I've seen the difference it can make and any house I build from now on will include one, especially in a place where any response will most likely arrive after the fact.

On the good news side, soil seems to be terrific. The property was almost certainly a sheep or cattle farm. Low stone walls piled with big rocks, very little in the way of the smaller rock walls for crop farm. We've got a couple of good brooks, one has the potential to damned up and turned into a pond for the animals. Nice East/South East slopping orientation. Lots of sun and plenty of water that runs off into a very nice little river with a very pretty set of water falls.

Next step, talk to the rangers and dig a few test pits.

Thanks for the feed back.

 

[dave1949]

Yeah the road is turning out to be quite fun. Worst case I have to bite the bullet and do it. Not so bad as I as I was kinda of looking forward to it. I think it means I'll be renting an excavator instead of buying one.

Insurance is going to be a problem. I'm not sure there's a fire department for twenty miles. Our plan is to pay as we build and end up debt free, I have enough debt already.

Whatever we build will have a sprinkler system. I've seen the difference it can make and any house I build from now on will include one, especially in a place where any response will most likely arrive after the fact.

On the good news side, soil seems to be terrific. The property was almost certainly a sheep or cattle farm. Low stone walls piled with big rocks, very little in the way of the smaller rock walls for crop farm. We've got a couple of good brooks, one has the potential to damned up and turned into a pond for the animals. Nice East/South East slopping orientation. Lots of sun and plenty of water that runs off into a very nice little river with a very pretty set of water falls.

Next step, talk to the rangers and dig a few test pits.

Thanks for the feed back.

That was good news and bad news I'm glad you found good soils and history of use. The water situation sounds ideal. Raise some rainbows for food?

I asked once about renting an excavator, the price was shocking plus they pile on the delivery and pickup charges. Hope you can find one at a reasonable rate. I don't remember the exact numbers, but at the time I could hire a contractor with an excavator for less per day than rent. I figure an experienced operator will get a lot more done in a day than I would, plus their experience is worth a good bit.

Of course, that doesn't mean I would mind owning one - oh the things I could do :laughing:
Dave.

 

[rtimgray]

"I know this is going to be a lot of work and that is what I am looking forward too,my wife not so much."

Of all of the things that I have read in this thread, this is the one that concerns me the most. It looks to me like you guys are looking at a pretty drastic change of life style over the course of the next few years, and if one or both of you isn't really into it, that could spell some big trouble.

I apologize if I have taken something out of context and overstepped my bounds, but I would deal with this situation before I worried about how to crown an access road.

I wish you the best of luck. Take care.

 

[DAY]

"I know this is going to be a lot of work and that is what I am looking forward too,my wife not so much."

Of all of the things that I have read in this thread, this is the one that concerns me the most.

Second that thought.

We did the "Back to the Land" bit, in the 1970's; the whole Ken Kern/Mother Earth News/Whole Earth Catalog lifestyle, and it was hard work. I hope the OP has a big, BIG bundle of rainy day money set aside, before embarking on this drastic change of lifestyle.

 

[Sulla]

"I know this is going to be a lot of work and that is what I am looking forward too,my wife not so much."

Of all of the things that I have read in this thread, this is the one that concerns me the most. It looks to me like you guys are looking at a pretty drastic change of life style over the course of the next few years, and if one or both of you isn't really into it, that could spell some big trouble.

I apologize if I have taken something out of context and overstepped my bounds, but I would deal with this situation before I worried about how to crown an access road.

I wish you the best of luck. Take care.

Thank you, that was very generous to go out on a limb like that, I appreciate it I was actually kidding a bit. My wife and I are on the same page, in fact the whole push to eat better and grow our own food is her more than me. I simply like the idea of have space to myself with a minimum of government interference. Plus a never ending excuse to use my tractor.

I also gotta find some way to stay in shape, I hate running. All kidding aside I don't expect nor want this to be easy. I do expect to spend some money. We have two houses now and will be selling one and renting the other. I also expect to continue to work. I have my own company managing investments, meaning I work somewhat flexible and odd hours. With any luck both endeavors will be with me the rest of my life, or as long as I can add and subtract. I like to work, when I'm not working I create problems, better to keep busy.

Thanks to all who keep posting. It makes the journey more interesting. I think it was Thoreau, who went into the woods to live more deliberately, (never mind he brought his wash to his mother every week) and I guess that's kinda what we are trying to do, live deliberately. We want to be conscious of our daily lives and how we live them.

I also do not plan in giving up a modern life, I like my gadgets. I just would like more control over my life. Even if it means nothing more than the right to decide which tree I cut down or where I put the chicken coop.

Can't change the world. ButI can change the little piece my family resides in.

Thanks again.

 

[Sulla]

In addition to figuring out what I am going to do with the road it is time to start clearing the first five acres. I need to get a storage building up and an acre or two cleared for planting next year. Step one cut down the trees. The land was harvested sometime in the last twenty years, so there's not many trees over eight inches in diameter.

Remembering I want to do this myself and I plan on using the wood for fire wood, here are the options I am considering:

Chain saw and my back.
Tree saw on three point hitch.
Excavator to dig them up and then use the back chain saw gig.
Excavator with heavy duty mower, turn the chips into pellets.

Right now I am leaning towards the tree saw, that's also a grapple. Cut 'em, drop 'em, pick 'em up and drag 'em to my make shift fire wood processor, yet to be developed ( could be saw and back again).

Other than telling me I am crazy for not hiring this out, any thoughts on the tractor mounted saw, or other options for that matter?

 

[dave1949]

Five acres is a whole lot of clearing by back and chainsaw even if the the trees are fairly small. You will need to get the stumps and roots out of your way too for building/pasture/gardening.

Have you considered a used construction backhoe line a Deer 310 or 410? It would do your road work and dig stumps, foundation trenches, etc.

I would consider a wood chipper, the bigger the better, about 8" capacity. You will be able to make good use of chipped tree tops forever given your plans. Soil building, stall bedding, mulching. Check out 'ramial wood chips':
Regenerating Soils with Ramial Chipped Wood - Natural Organic Home Garden Health Howard Garrett Dirt Doctor

Dave.

 

[DAY]

I also gotta find some way to stay in shape, I hate running.
Someone asked if horseback riding was good exercise. Yes- for the horse!
Sitting on a tractor, working knobs and levers, is not exercise.

I also do not plan in giving up a modern life, I like my gadgets. I just would like more control over my life. Even if it means nothing more than the right to decide which tree I cut down or where I put the chicken coop.

Can't change the world. ButI can change the little piece my family resides in.

Thanks again.

Living close to the land, working with the seasons, with nature, is NOT day trading. There is a slower pace to life, but no less intense. At 4 AM in February, with a ewe in a difficult labor and a vet five hours away- AFTER you plow that road,- you have to step up and 'git 'er done'.

As an earlier poster said, don't spend too much time on the details- back blade vs grader, chain saw vs excavator-, and decide on what you want the end result to be. And WHY.

Some folks would like to build a log house as seen in the old Foxfire books, others want a prefab dwelling, dropped in by helicopter. Each can be satisfying, but for different reasons. I wish you luck with your enterprise; there is a wealth of knowledge here, so ASK before you DO.:thumbsup:

 

[Sulla]

Living close to the land, working with the seasons, with nature, is NOT day trading. There is a slower pace to life, but no less intense. At 4 AM in February, with a ewe in a difficult labor and a vet five hours away- AFTER you plow that road,- you have to step up and 'git 'er done'.

As an earlier poster said, don't spend too much time on the details- back blade vs grader, chain saw vs excavator-, and decide on what you want the end result to be. And WHY.

Some folks would like to build a log house as seen in the old Foxfire books, others want a prefab dwelling, dropped in by helicopter. Each can be satisfying, but for different reasons. I wish you luck with your enterprise; there is a wealth of knowledge here, so ASK before you DO.:thumbsup:

Thank goodness I'm not a day trader! I think I get what you're telling me, " be prepared for some tough times and do what needs to be done with what I have to do it with. Good advice, thank you.

I do know what it is like to work hard, I started my business when I was twenty five. Different work, sure. But eighteen hour days for years on end gives me some idea of what hard work is like. Not to mention I've just stated another one. But enough with that.

Hopefully I am not being naive, but I believe this project is within my wife's and my capabilities. Hopefully if I ask enough questions and listen to the answers I can avoid making a lot of dumb and costly mistakes. I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the road and the lot clearing by next week to stay on schedule. I don't think the Forest Service roads will work. There are three wooden bridges that need to be crossed I'm pretty certain they won't handle anything bigger than a one ton. My GMC 1500 makes them creak.

More Pictures as soon as the land dries out a bit.

 

[jdonovan]

Chain saw and my back.
Tree saw on three point

Other than telling me I am crazy for not hiring this out, any thoughts on the tractor mounted saw, or other options for that matter?

Start with saw and back.

You'll have to have a saw anyway, and I assume you already have a back :thumbsup:

So net-net the saw&back is a zero additional cost option. Once you start working that way you'll see where you spend your time/labor and can begin to find a solution to make that part of the job less time consuming and less physically stressful.

 

[fowllife]

Ok, I'll chime in a little on the land clearing. It shouldn't be that bad if the trees are only 8" and smaller. 5 ac is a large area to clear, but you can do it if you want too. Just keep in mind it will probably take you several months to get it done. If you erally want to do it yourself you can.

It's going to be a lot cheaper to buck the logs to length, split, and use for firewood rather then trying to pres them into pellets, plus pellet mills are expensive. Get yourself 2 good chainsaws (you never want to cut with just one because you will eventually get it stuck) and go to town dropping trees. You can either cut then to firewood sized right to start, or just 10' logs that you can stack with your loader. Start in one area and then work your way through. Do as much as you can as you go so you aren't fighting with brush, logs, ect. It you make it easier on your if you also got a wood chipper for the tops.

Cut your trees 2' or 3' off the ground. The stumps may be a pain to work around but it will make it much easier to remove the stumps. You will probably want to remove a "road" of stumps through the center of your work area as you go. When you get half way done dropping and clearing, or at the end for that matter, rent a dozer. A D6 class with a root rake will be the ticket to getting everything all cleaned up and ready to go. Either push all the stumps into a pile to burn, or dig a hole somewhere out of the way and burry them.

For this large of an area though you should at least talk to some locals. There may be someone in the area that does land clearing that has the big equipment to get this done in a couple days, and it may be cheaper then doing it yourself.

 

[dave1949]

I believe this project is within my wife's and my capabilities. Hopefully if I ask enough questions and listen to the answers I can avoid making a lot of dumb and costly mistakes. I'm going to have to pull the trigger on the road and the lot clearing by next week to stay on schedule. I don't think the Forest Service roads will work. There are three wooden bridges that need to be crossed I'm pretty certain they won't handle anything bigger than a one ton. My GMC 1500 makes them creak.

More Pictures as soon as the land dries out a bit.

Three bridges are probably a non-starter -- permits, engineered plans and construction costs would be killers.

No doubt, this is within you and your wife's capabilities but you will need to pace yourselves and work smart to avoid letting the project grind you down to the point where it's just no fun. I think that is the psychological danger, the new project adrenaline rush wears off after 2-3 years

If you get your road serviceable, clear enough space and totally prep it for your first building project, that would be a good accomplishment for one season in my mind. Drop any trees on the perimeter of that area that lean towards your building location and expect a few wind-throws anytime you clear a wooded area, you will be exposing trees to wind they are not used to.

You need some time to walk your land and really understand and get to know it anyways. The existing vegetation can tell you a lot about the soils and moisture levels, plus observing this through a year or two of seasons is invaluable. Some test pits to confirm what you think are also a good idea.

Having a 'master' plan that is well thought out beforehand is the best way to avoid costly mistakes and do-overs. That plan includes everything you want to do or are even thinking of doing; the pieces drop into place in a logical way. You just can't come up with that in a couple weeks or months in my opinion. Developing that plan is the most valuable thing you and your wife can do this summer.

As you talk about your challenges I think more and more a 4wd construction backhoe with an enclosed cab, hydraulic thumb on the digging bucket and grapple attachment on the loader bucket would be a great choice. Put a set of good chains on it and it will clear a lot of snow. You might need to hire an excavator for a few things, but that backhoe would cover a lot of bases and can transport materials like stumps, rocks, gravel, dirt, brush piles, building supplies, grade/maintain your road, dig trenches, etc. A decent used one will be expensive, but when add up what it does over the years, it is a good investment.

All master plans start with a list I will start one and others will add to it.

Where to put your water well, pressure tank and supply lines so it serves the house and animals and will not be contaminated by manure runoff and never freeze up.

What sort of septic system? Composting toilet or water based? Grey water system?

A summer kitchen and dedicated butchering area with hot water and heat?

A wood-fired boiler that can heat all the buildings you want heat in, provides domestic hot water and uses your own firewood for fuel?

A sugar bush and sap house? I had a chance to taste pure red maple syrup recently, it wasn't quite the same as sugar/rock maple, but still quite good.

Root cellar?

Storage for a winter's worth of feed hay?

Tractor assessable composting area?

Wood shed?

Any drainage needs, french drains, swales, etc?

Storms come from north and northwest?

Kitchen garden?

Hen house?


One note about tree stumps, check out stump fences. The old timers used everything stump fences - Google Search

Dave.

 

[DAY]

-Lots of good advice from Dave 1949; especially since he lives "up there".

May I suggest a first project: Clearing those trees with the chainsaw, and build a "woodshed". In quotes, because it can be as simple as a lodgepole teepee and a tarp, or as fancy as a post and beam structure with handsplit cedar shakes on the roof.
A recent post discussed those structures, and another discussed the drying of the future fuel supply. A two year aging process was the goal, so start now.

Building a woodshed will make you decide where to locate the future house, and it will give you some simple construction tasks without much downside if the results are not ready for prime time (or photos to post here:laughing

Felling trees- even "small" 8 inchers, develops lots of skills, both physical and mental, and even a few hours of exercise results in a tangible accomplishment:thumbsup:

 

[tommu56]

I had a 2-3 acre lot cleared off when I built my cabin 30 years ago the guy I used for the excavation said don't take any trees down it would be easier for him to push the whole tree over root ball and all.
I've done this 2 times for food plots since they push them over and stack them up in piles and I cut the fire wood from the piles.

Talk to your excavator and see the best plan for both of you.

Stagger your clearing so the wood will rot laying around so if you can do 1-2 acres every 2 years the wood wont rot in a planed succession as opposed to instant gratification of doing it all at once.

tom