Beware JD Credit

Dahammer · Jul 18, 2003

The only way it could have been "too many inquiries" was for the prospective credit card issuer to have had access to the raw credit bureau data and considered all inquiries--or--you and/or the credit bureaus are engaging in a game of semantics. 
Or there were errors in your report, a VERY common occurrence. Or you made credit requests and do not recall them. Are you elderly? /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif Note that requests you made stay on your report a full two years. I doubt very much that there is a "mole" at TransUnion selling 'raw data' to anyone. What is 'raw data' anyhow?? binary code?

 When the credit bureaus say that don't report promotional inquiries, they are not refering to specific inquiries about an individual. 
I see. Since they are not "refering to specific inquiries about an individual" they must be looking for homogeneous groups instead. To wit: "Hey TransUnion, got a list of one-legged Blue dwarfs I can send some promotional material to?" Sincerely, The Right Shoe Company. But hey! How does TransUnion know who is a one-legged blue dwarf? Maybe the "mole" is psychic?

 Instead, they are really talking about supplying the name, address, and other data of individuals who meet a certain set of criteria. No credit report is supplied or asked for. 
Oh, so they are looking for "individual" one-legged blue dwarfs? Scratch the above paragraph then.

 The credit bureaus probably term these scans of their databases as promotional inquiries because they find it a more palatable term to hand out than the truth. In other words, they would rather not admit they sell people's names.
 Absolutely.

 What I am talking about, on the other hand, is specific requests for my credit information by firms given my name by the mortage issuer. That is a completely different thing. 
Yep, I see. A "specific" request, rather than a "general" request?

 All of these inquiries are listed in the inquiry section of an individual's credit report, whether or not they impact the FICO score--and most definately whether or not the individual initiated the inquiries. The only criteria seems to be that someone asked for an individuals report by name.
 You do know that there are two distinct sections on your credit report for inquiries. They are separated so you can see which ones were promotional in nature. It also prevents anyone from seeing them that requests your report.

 I stand by what I said. I was denied credit by a prospective lender because a number businesses inquired about my credit, and they got my name from the mortgage issuer. 
And you know that because????? The mortgage issuer told you? You just have a "feeling"?? /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Just having some fun here...It appears that you had promotional inquiries that were recorded as being regular run of the mill inquiries. They naturally showed up on your report and it looked very bad, horribly bad. So bad that you were denied credit even though you had a "gold plated" rating. If you say it was because of your mortgage banker then what the hey, I'll buy it...I don't think anyone is going to convince you otherwise..Oh one last thing,

*cue the Culombo Theme*

did you say that "too many inquiries" was the ONLY reason for the denial or was there

*zoom in on DaHammer*

another reason also??? The reason I ask is because of the following from the Experian web site:

 Fallacy : My score will drop if I apply for new credit.
Fact : If it does, it probably won't drop much . If you apply for several credit cards within a short period of time, multiple requests for your credit report information (called "inquiries") will appear on your report. Looking for new credit can equate with higher risk, but most credit scores are not affected by multiple inquiries from auto or mortgage lenders within a short period of time. Typically, these are treated as a single inquiry and will have little impact on the credit score.

Suprising that with "gold plate" credit you had the problems you did just because of some inquiries....

Libertine · Jul 18, 2003

SnowRidge:

Denial of credit may be based on many issues. The nominal (stated) reason may have nothing what-so-ever to do with the actual reason. In other words the why is just the excuse. I'm surprised that has not been mentioned in this thread.

No one, repeat no one, with "gold plated" credit (whatever that means) is denied credit. Gold plated, if it means anything, means you DO NOT NEED the credit.

Don't worry about it. If you don't need credit, you'll never be turned down for credit. Almost ANYONE can get credit if they catch the right lender at the right time. All this discussion of excuses for getting/not getting credit misses the point.

Remember, what you use as money IS CREDIT (i.e. debt). Every single dollar floating around came into being because someone borrowed something from the banking system. In order to keep the system afloat, the banking system HAS to keep on lending, if nothing else than to cover the interest charges on the debt.

Remember, debt is money and money is debt. Period.

JEH

SnowRidge · Jul 19, 2003

( Don't worry about it. If you don't need credit, you'll never be turned down for credit. Almost ANYONE can get credit if they catch the right lender at the right time. All this discussion of excuses for getting/not getting credit misses the point. )

Sigh.

1. MDog started this thread to complain about JD Credit.

2. He stated that excessive credit inquiries generated as a result of someone like JD Credit selling a customer's info could cause problems for the customer if he later sought credit from another lender.

3. I agreed with that statement and offered one instance of that happening to me as an example.

4. Dahammer tried to tell me what happened to me didn't really happen to me, complete with lots of color and weak attempts at humor.

5. I responded.

And so forth.

For the record, I am not worried as you put it, and the sole purpose of my posts has been to agree that what MDog said originally is correct, and to defend what I view as a personal attack on my veracity.

This will be my last post on the matter.

SnowRidge

MDog · Jul 19, 2003

More follow up by the original poster.

Snowridge,
I liked your last post (below) and I started the thread as a complaint about JD Credit and the Dealer.

I have good credit and was approved for the low rate financing. I have an available credit line but it is not a low rate special. I look at the total cost after financing and JD got my business (briefly).

JD broke the credit contract that was signed and initialed by myself and their representative and the dealer played immediate hardball. No negotiating.

Apparently JD wants to be able to collect and sell your info to recoup the low rate costs. Some one said you could opt out. I chose not to opt in but was not allowed to. I wonder how much the lists of customers with current info, credit ratings and scores are worth. I guess it would be more for a list of potential customers with a score above 720 (as Dahammer says is golden) than a list with 700 or 600 and above. I wonder how much for a subscription to a continiously updated list with the credit parameters of your choosing that does not require credit bureau or anyone's permission. I wonder if the price will be more 10 or 20 years from now. After all you gave up your right to privacy forever.

If it does not bother some people that is their perogative.

I had a problem with it.
It is more than a week later and I still have a problem with it.
I chose not to deal with a company whose conduct and priorities are so different from myself.

MDog

 
Snowridge post:
Sigh.

1. MDog started this thread to complain about JD Credit.

2. He stated that excessive credit inquiries generated as a result of someone like JD Credit selling a customer's info could cause problems for the customer if he later sought credit from another lender.

3. I agreed with that statement and offered one instance of that happening to me as an example.

4. Dahammer tried to tell me what happened to me didn't really happen to me, complete with lots of color and weak attempts at humor.

5. I responded.

And so forth.

For the record, I am not worried as you put it, and the sole purpose of my posts has been to agree that what MDog said originally is correct, and to defend what I view as a personal attack on my veracity.

This will be my last post on the matter.

SnowRidge

Cab_Grapes · Jul 19, 2003

mdog wrote:
“JD broke the credit contract that was signed and initialed by myself and their representative and the dealer played immediate hardball. No negotiating.”

No, JD did not break the contract, you did. Goes to the three fundamentals of a valid contract. A contract has to have three essential elements to be a valid contract. Two parties, agreement as to terms and conditions, and consideration (usually money) for the subject of the contract (service or object), in this case the tractor. JD offered you terms (the contract as written), if you accepted without revision, you & JD had agreement as to terms. If you changed/altered the terms then not until JD acknowledged that they accepted the change(s) was there (again) a valid contract – namely agreement. You cannot unilaterally change the terms of an agreement. The parties, both or all parties, must agree to any change or modifications to the terms and do so in writing.

With respect to the dealer signing:
You were in fact, technically, dealing with someone who was/is not authorized to make or agree to modifications to the contract. That agreement to the actual contract with JD corporataion is reserved to JD corporation. The dealer is a independent business and not a part, nor is the dealer an employee of JD – for good reasons. This reservation, or limitation on the scope of the dealers authority often is stated somewhere in the contract (in the fine print, of course), or an accompanying document or notice states it. The dealer may have been symbolically acting to accept your signature, much like a witness or notary, but only when the signed contract was received by JD and they notified you of acceptance, “welcome to the JD family and congrats on your new tractor” language, was the contract officially consummated. Alternatively, the fact that the contract likely states that the agreement is with JD Corporation, or JD Credit Corporation, and the Dealer as an independent businessman who is licensed to sell JD products, he is not an employee nor officer of JD Corporation or JD Credit Corporation. Only a designated corporate officer or actual JD employee authorized to make and/or agree to changes in the standard contract can.

Come-on mdog, this is just common sense as to how modern business is structured.

Not until JD corporation received the contract you modified and signed, and acknowledged acceptance of the changes was the contract actually valid and final. So, JD had every right to refuse your contract modifications. Your changing the terms of the contract they gave you to sign required them to acknowledge it, since until they agreed to the changes you made did there exist mutually agreed to terms, therefore there was no valid contract. The fact that you may/might be ignorant of these fundamentals of contracts, or JD Corporate role, does not make your changes and/or the contract you altered and signed a valid contract.

You could actually be viewed as breaking the contract in effect by making changes at the time of signing because it could be construed that you had an implied contract with JD in that you applied for credit, JD accepted or granted your application and then submitted the contract to you to sign.

If you wanted to alter the contract terms you should have done it before the signing and obtained JD’s agreement. If JD had agreed to the changes to the actual contract, and then you signed and they subsequently notified you that they would not accept the changes, then they would have broken the contract and you would have a legitimate claim of breach. Baring that, you never had a contract until a JD Corporate representative specifically designated to make or agree to contract changes agreed, in writing.

If the dealer let you believe or lead you to believe that he was authorized to make or agree to contract term changes on JD’s behalf, then he was possibly either ignorant or misrepresented himself. In the latter case you might have an action, but I doubt it.

The three fundamentals of a contract you can get from Judge Judy, if not from basic business law. ;-)

Now what may be really surprising is I learned the three fundamentals of a contract in a public high school in Denver, in the 1960’s. Ok, it’s also part of grad school and I learned it again there. But I’d still lobby for it being part of basic public education particularly in like of what has been posted in this thread. But that’s another soap box on American education – which I’m not trying to start!!!

It’s not a free lunch…
There is no free lunch, 0% financing is an equivalent of an offer of a free lunch. The cost is all the aggravation you experienced, the energy you wasted and the fact that consumer credit (the type of credit you obtain from retail businesses like furniture, appliances, etc.), in all it’s forms, is the lowest form of credit, save possibly (but maybe equivalent to) sub-prime lending. And consumer credit is weighted that way within the statistical models for consumer credit behavior used to determine credit risk by the credit reporting agencies. Just as a home mortgage is weighted very, very heavily in their statistical model of credit risk.

Just a personal opinion, I think you and others who get worked up over these kinds of things, I think your time and energies would be better and more productively spent becoming a lot more educated and knowledgeable about finance, financial matters and credit management. That knowledge would give you the power to mange the actual financial and credit systems and instruments to your advantage as opposed to being at their mercy and the whining that has gone on here.

There’s no small amount of poor, missing or just plain wrong information of how financial and credit things work out there in the real world, not to mention a lot of prejudices that may make one feel better but really get in the way of effectively acquiring, using and managing money and credit. Money is a commodity, like beans (is there a pun in that?), credit is just a way of using and managing the commodity. It ain’t personal, it’s a business, the business of money.

On credit agencies:
They’re just like insurance companies. They use statistical models of behavior, human conditions and experience to assess and determine risk, and quantify the risk in terms of potential payouts and policy prices. The credit agencies also use statistical models of behavior and experience with the use of money and the tools for managing money, credit, to quantify risk and translate that risk into a relative qualitative measure in quantitative terms, a credit score. You can choose to manage your life and behavior to live longer and get lower insurance premium rates. You can also choose to obtain the knowledge, manage your life and behavior to increase your power with money and obtain the highest credit rating which provides you with more power and therefore more access to money through credit. :- )

One example of how you can mange the system for yourself. Read all the stuff the credit reporting agencies provide as resources and information on their web sites. Turns out demographically most people rarely use anywhere near the total amount of their total available credit across all sources, independent of secured debt. If you do you suddenly become a much more significant credit risk within their statistical models of consumer credit behavior. The moral of the story, if you think you will need $20k of credit, obtain $45-50K then your percentage used is small, alternatively, never use over half to 65% max of your total available credit (combined).

Disagreement…
“money is credit and credit is money.” (grimreaper)

No! Money is a medium of exchange.

1. Money: “A medium that can be exchanged for goods and services and is used as a measure of their values on the market, including among its forms a commodity such as gold, an officially issued coin or note, or a deposit in a checking account or other readily liquifiable account. “

As a medium of exchange it is also a commodity in and of itself. Bought, sold and/or leased.

As a medium of exchange there are different instruments or tools that are used to complete or manage the exchange. Credit is one tool. Credit is, at it’s most fundamental basis, trust. There are a variety of types of credit instruments, revolving credit (i.e., credit cards, consumer credit, etc.), unsecured credit lines, secured credit (secured by property or assets, i.e., real estate, auto loans, etc.), to name a few. My perspective is that you establish credit, or establish the trust, in order to have access to it, money through credit, in the future, when you want and/or need it. You do not go out and “get” credit or “borrow” when you need it. That’s absolutely the wrong time. You have no power and are at “their” mercy. Never, never give anyone that power!!!

Just one guys mad method. Just remember, money is a commodity like any other! Treat it like one, but with more respect!

Chris,
Sonoma, CA

5string · Jul 20, 2003

Geez Cab Grapes - do you really think that we are all that naive. I think most people here have at a minimum, a intuitive (high school level) understanding of how money and credit works in the real world. My 10 year old understands, he just hasn't learned all the fancy words yet.

I bet 2/3's of the people that sign these contracts don't even read them. I think most people take a cursory look, but don't really take the time to read and absorb what they are signing.

Right or wrong, Mdog took a position and stuck by it, even after JD threatened to and later did take his tractor; one must respect that. How many would have caved in just to have that new toy sitting in the driveway. The fact that he didn't tells me that his hand shake is most likely as good as any piece of paper.

JohnMiller3 · Jul 20, 2003

...No, JD did not break the contract, you did. Goes to the three fundamentals of a valid contract. A contract has to have three essential elements to be a valid contract. Two parties, agreement as to terms and conditions, and consideration (usually money) for the subject of the contract (service or object), in this case the tractor. JD offered you terms (the contract as written), if you accepted without revision, you & JD had agreement as to terms. If you changed/altered the terms then not until JD acknowledged that they accepted the change(s) was there (again) a valid contract – namely agreement. You cannot unilaterally change the terms of an agreement. The parties, both or all parties, must agree to any change or modifications to the terms and do so in writing.... 

I agree... /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

By the way Chris,... very well written... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

MDog · Jul 30, 2003

Many large snips......

>>>>Cab_Grapes wrote:
No, JD did not break the contract, you did. Goes to the three fundamentals of a valid contract. A contract has to have three essential elements to be a valid contract........

< JD introduced something not previously discussed at signing, marketing your information. JD changed the term previously agreed to at time of signing. JD and I had agreed on terms until they introduced new ones at time of signing.

>>>>>With respect to the dealer signing:
You were in fact, technically, dealing with someone who was/is not authorized to make or agree to modifications to the contract.......This reservation, or limitation on the scope of the dealers authority often is stated somewhere in the contract (in the fine print, of course), or an accompanying document or notice states it......

< No limitations stated anywhere. I can not be expected to be aware of limitations not revealed.

>>>>> Come-on mdog, this is just common sense as to how modern business is structured......

< Usually there is some negotiating involved.

>>>>>If you wanted to alter the contract terms you should have done it before the signing and obtained JD’s agreement......

< How can I alter terms that I am unaware of?

>>>>>Now what may be really surprising is I learned the three fundamentals of a contract in a public high school in Denver, in the 1960’s........

< I am sure that in Denver in 1960 I would have lost a court case. This is 2003 and I don't live in Denver. My sister (Justice) said their argument would probably be the "authority to make changes" one but because I did not change the fundamentals and JD wanted to change the term I would probably prevail. Courts are more lenient towards the individual today. I did not go to court..JD has it's tractor back.

>>>>>It’s not a free lunch…
There is no free lunch, 0% financing is an equivalent of an offer of a free lunch.

It was not 0% and they did not sell it to me below cost. It is their way of increasing the profit margins.

>>>>>Just a personal opinion, I think you and others who get worked up over these kinds of things, I think your time and energies would be better and more productively spent becoming a lot more educated and knowledgeable about finance, financial matters and credit management........

>>>>There’s no small amount of poor, missing or just plain wrong information of how financial and credit things work out there......

<I chose not to help the system. You can.

Docsknotinn · Aug 1, 2003

Wow, ok well let me say I respect your decision. I am tickled greeen, orange yellow or any other color that will give me 0% financeing. You gotta do what ya gotta do to feel right at the end of the day. I am just a little confused as to your anger. If you didnt like the deal you had and used other options. That really is the end of it. Everyone should have been happy happy either way. No pay, no tractor. I dont like signeing theese things either but it really is very standard and for a free loan I'll jump through a few hoops. It has always been my understanding that there is only 1 element for a contract. Mutual consideration. F-350, if you fight with Blue Cross long enough they will give you an account number that is not your SS #. I did this already.

F350Lawman · Aug 1, 2003

F-350, if you fight with Blue Cross long enough they will give you an account number that is not your SS #. I did this already.

I am not concerned with it, but thanks for the information anyway.

P.S. I since this post began I signed my JD loan agreement so I'm DOOMED anyway
/forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif