Beware JD Credit

Libertine · Jul 12, 2003

cowboydoc:

To get a house loan you have to give them everything on you including the right to your first born 

Not really. When we bought current house they wanted all kinds of stuff. I gave them permission to run a credit report and that was all. When they tried to insist on more, I told them we would just pay cash then. When they realized I was serious, all of a sudden they decided they didn't need any further information.

et al

Use of SS # - The use of a SS# as an account number is VERY, VERY risky. You give me your SS # and I can plug into trans union (with my computer) and get your credit history which will then give me personal data which I can then use for pulling your life history. Now I myself wouldn't do that (certainly not without legal permission), but have any of you heard of the problem with "identity theft?" Some states use SS# on drivers license. Don't let them - most (certainly Missouri does) allow the use of some other identifying number they assign. It's best to get your mail through a PO box. Someone can steal your credit card bills from your mailbox and guess what happens then?

As far as borrowing is concerned, I have noticed over the years that when people lend you money they usually want it back. Someone else mentioned never borrow. Good idea, although if you are going to borrow ask yourself - exactly how is what I am buying going to earn the money needed to pay it back???? If you borrow for a tractor that is being used in your business and will clearly earn back its cost, then it is a productive investment worth borrowing to get. If the thing is not bringing in cash IT IS A CONSUMER GOOD - like your house, car, etc. Things are so bad, I see people buying groceries (or meals in restaurants) with CREDIT CARDS!!!!! Insane. The people are borrowing money from a bank to purchase something that will literally be flushed down the toilet before they get the bill. As far as 0% manufacturer deals does anyone here actually, truly, really BELIEVE that the cost of the loan isn't built into the price and that paying cash wouldn't get you a lower price? If you do ... I'm selling shares in the St. Louis arch. Good investment folks!!!!

What counts, ultimately, is your balance sheet. On the left side put what you own. On the right put what you owe. The difference is your NET WORTH. When you buy a tractor (or anything else) you are exchanging one asset (cash) for another. Compare your balance sheet before the purchase and after to see what effect it will have on your financial condition. If you borrow to buy the thing (tractor?) you increase debt but do nothing to help your NET. And, although a tractor depreciates much less than an automobile, is DOES DEPRECIATE. So buying a tractor will REDUCE your net unless you are earning money with it. Period. It's simple bookkeeping folks.

JEH

PS On the original thread, JD can do anything they want. If you don't like it, buy from someone else, pay cash, or, save up for it (anyone remember what saving up to buy something is????).

Bird · Jul 12, 2003

( I see people buying groceries (or meals in restaurants) with CREDIT CARDS!!!!! Insane)

Yep, I surely do buy nearly everything with credit cards. Insane? I don't think so. I get your point, but I think you overlooked one small detail. Some folks, like myself, pay the credit card bill in full every month so there is no interest to be paid, and in fact, the credit card we use the most even pays us a very small rebate, so it's actually not only more convenient, it's cheaper.

F350Lawman · Jul 12, 2003

Use of SS # - The use of a SS# as an account number is VERY, VERY risky. You give me your SS # and I can plug into trans union (with my computer) and get your credit history which will then give me personal data which I can then use for pulling your life history. Now I myself wouldn't do that (certainly not without legal permission), but have any of you heard of the problem with "identity theft?" Some states use SS# on drivers license. Don't let them - most (certainly Missouri does) allow the use of some other identifying number they assign. It's best to get your mail through a PO box. Someone can steal your credit card bills from your mailbox and guess what happens then?

First of all it EASY to get SS#s so their use as account #s doesn't Bother me too much. Just read a story online about a web site that is posting WA police officer's, Name, DOB, SS# and address. The Judge ruled that is legal to post this info. and that no laws were broken by the web sites owner in gathering or posting the info.

This is why the account #s or your mail box is the least of your worries. All this info. is out their in a 1000 databases, dumpster diving for credit card slips or rifling mailboxes is loosing ground to much more sophisticated methods. There are sites online that will provide SS# info. to you on anyone as long as you prove that you have a business license. How hard is it to have some bogus business and then use/sell the info.?

The thought of living my life so worried about someone stealing my info. that I have to travel back and forth to town to check my PO Box is much more disturbing than the actual risks of having my own mailbox.

Perhaps I should drive different routes every day from the PO Box, dirty up my license paltes and throw in a few "crazy Ivans" just in case I am being followed? /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Things are so bad, I see people buying groceries (or meals in restaurants) with CREDIT CARDS!!!!!

You may have seen me BUT that's a credit/debit card and I use it as a debit card for just about EVERYTHING. The money is taken from my account right on the spot and I don't need to carry cash. Keeps track of all my purchases and is much safer than a wad of cash.

I think many people you see are doing the same.

I don't go out of my way to put myself in potential trouble but life is too short to worry this much. Relax.

cowboydoc · Jul 12, 2003

I sure tryed that with a # of banks and they basically said thanks for stopping by.

As far as buying with credit cards I buy everything with a credit card in our business. First of all I have a complete record of purchases. The credit card company sends me monthly and yearly summaries. Secondly I haven't bought a plane ticket for some time now. Because we put so much on the credit cards we always have enough miles to get a ticket when we need one. Yes they are paid off every month.

As far as the no interest financing goes yes it does get figured in. But whether I pay cash or finance I'm going to get the same rate. If there is a discount for cash I'll pay by that way. Take Best Buy or some of the other places. If I need a computer, camera, etc. I can use their money completely free for a year or two. That money is working for me while I am getting free interest on my purchases. I always pay those off as well.

Credit or borrowing is not a good or a bad thing. It all depends on how you use it.

Dahammer · Jul 12, 2003

Use of SS # - The use of a SS# as an account number is VERY, VERY risky. You give me your SS # and I can plug into trans union (with my computer) and get your credit history which will then give me personal data which I can then use for pulling your life history.

Well, actually you can't. In order to pull an online-report you need more than a SSN. Go to the web site and try getting your own report, you can't with just a SSN. And let's say you did get a copy of my report? So what? What *exactly* does that do for you or more importantly, how does that harm me? So you see that I am in debt up to my ears in tractor stuff /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif With my report in your hands you wouldn't have a single credit card number. You couldn't even tell which bank I use. It has a list of addresses, former jobs and names you used, your birthdate, any public records and your bills. It is far from someone's "life history". In Arizona your drivers license number is your SSN, that is how "worrisome" having your SSN known is.

glennmac · Jul 12, 2003

Sheesh, if you guys are taking this so seriously, I will in all seriousness concede:

1. Using credit cards for record keeping purposes is a good idea.

2. Paying off a credit card in full each month is using a credit card, but is not really buying on credit, as I was using the term (ie, borrowing and paying back over time with interest added).

3. If you have the $25K to buy Item A and can borrow at a rate (such as 0%) that is less than the rate you can invest the $25K, it makes sense to borrow. But,

4. Most people don't invest the 25K. They spend the 25K on Item B, which they don't have the money to pay for.

Now, my situation is completely different. I didn't have the money to buy a 2910 three years ago. So, not taking my own advice, as is my custom, I borrowed it at 8% from Kubota over 5 years. Now that I am essentially unemployed, I can't afford the monthly payments. But if I trade for a new 3430, I can now borrow at 2.9% over five years and actually lower my monthly payments. I know, I know, I'm not that stupid: I now have to pay for five more years instead of two. But I figure since I can't afford the monthly payments for much longer anyway, I might as well have a 3430 for 15 months before they repossess than a 2910 for 12 months before they repossess. It's the prolonged hedonism theory of finance. Makes sense to me.

And I don't give a rat's tail what's in the mumbo jumbo finance contract.

MDog · Jul 12, 2003

Followup from original poster.
I seem to have started something.
For those people asking about the "purposes above" I will type the complete paragraph:
Consent. You authorize us and our affiliates to collect, use and disclose information about you from time to time for the following purposes ("Purposes") to (a) initiate maintain and develop our business relationship with you, (b) promote and market additional goods and sevices that we, our affiliates, other well established companies offering products by mail or direct marketing, (c) assess yor creditworthyness, (d) extend credit to you, (e) service and collect your account, (f) comply with applicable law, (g) establish your eligibility for special offers and discounts, (h) identify your preferences, and promote goods and services offered by us, our affiliates or other well established companies and (i) monitor your purchasing history. You understand that we and our affiliates, (1) may disclose certain of the information about you to dealers, merchants, credit reporting agencies, credit bureaus, third party service providers, assignees and others with whom we or any of our affiliates does or proposes to do business whose goods or services we believe you may find interesting or useful, (2) will make these disclosures for the Purposes above, and (3) may collect personal information about you from your financial institution, credit reporting agencies or credit bureaus, and others with whom you do business from time to time for the purposes above. You authorize these persons to provide such information to us and our affiliates, We and our affiliates may use such information in our records for so long as it is needed for the purposes above and your consent remains valid after termination of our relationship with you.

Credit bureaus are a necessary evil but 3rd partyand other companies are not, and there are restrictions on banks and credit bureaus giving out info. This bypasses them.
Your credit score is affected by the amount of inquiries whether credit is granted or not.
By signing this JD can legally request financial info from your bank, the credit bureau, and others, any time they want FOR THE REST OF YOR LIFE. They can disclose (probably sell) this info to any one they want to at any time FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.
I DO NOT BELIEVE JD HAS SOME MASTER PLAN. I think their lawyer tried to cover every possible problem. How ever I can just imagine some "been counter" showing how to save x dollars per year by selling info. There is never a problem until the law suits are bigger than the profits.

I had a problem giving info to other companies for the rest of my life. JD was unwilling to discuss or come to some arrangement. They broke the contract and recovered the tractor the next day. JD wanted to take the tractor back and send me the balance of my deposit after "used" depreciation, I refused. Then they were going to charge me 2 hours shop rate to pick it up, I refused. They threatened to show up with the sheriff, I said go ahead. They came at 7:40 A.M. the next morning with a cheque for the full amount. All told less than 24 hours from demand to return.

I seem to have lost that GREEN feeling.

Dahammer · Jul 13, 2003

Credit bureaus are a necessary evil but 3rd partyand other companies are not, and there are restrictions on banks and credit bureaus giving out info. 

You may not know this, but there are very few restrictions on a credit reporting agency giving out your information. Basically it is given to anyone that pays the fee AND has a bonfide reason. Your permission IS NOT required. Anybody with a bonfide reason and 25 dollars can get your credit report. John Deere or anyone else doesn't even have to ask you.

 Your credit score is affected by the amount of inquiries whether credit is granted or not.


Well, not exactly. In fact, under the circumstances of this disclosure, your credit score would not be affected at all. Your credit score can go down with multiple inquiries, you are correct. But, ONLY if they are initiated by you. When First Bank calls me with a sweet APR it is because they pulled my FICO, not because I applied for credit. I can have fifty credit inquiries on my report in a month and my score will not go down.

 JD can legally request financial info from your bank, the credit bureau, and others, any time they want FOR THE REST OF YOR LIFE. 

Yep, so can anyone else with a bonfide reason. GMAC, FMCC, American Honda, GECC, MBNA, Kubota Finance, you name it and they can all get it. Without your permission. Not required. You should note that there isn't a bank in the world that will give out account numbers, balances or sensitive financial info without a signed release form, usually on their stationary. In other words, John Deere legally can request it, but your bank would never give it out.

For the crowd that subscribes to the whole "black Helicopters flying and spying thing" here is another nugget. Ever hear of an "Investigative consumer reports" ? They are detailed reports that involve interviews with your neighbors or acquaintances about your lifestyle, character, and reputation. You can't do anything about those either. Your permission is not required.

 I had a problem giving info to other companies for the rest of my life. JD was unwilling to discuss or come to some arrangement. 

This isn't really your call anymore.......... /forums/images/graemlins/crazy.gif no matter how far north you go.

I hope this helps you understand how the Fair Credit Reporting Act works and that you have absolutely no rational reason to fear or distrust John Deere Credit. Believe me, they are not after you..................................yet. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Libertine · Jul 13, 2003

cowboydoc:

Credit or borrowing is not a good or a bad thing. It all depends on how you use it. 

No question about that. Also, the use of cards in business if paid off isn't a bad idea. I have two cards one for personal and one biz. Easy to keep track of stuff (especially with the annual categorization they provide). My point was simply that the use of credit card is, in reality, borrowing. The credit card makes it (for many) TOO EASY to purchase things that might otherwise not be purchased. I know about "debit cards" (per Bird, et al), but many people buying food, etc. are borrowing to buy (the amount is not simply deducted from a cash account with a positive balance). The main advantage (as I see it) in using cards (assuming they are paid off monthly - i.e. short term loans) is third party recourse. If you run into problems with a vendor you have access to a heavy hitter third party that the vendor has to consider.

As far as borrowing "interest free" (not true in reality) and "using" the money for other uses, this depends on situation. As someone else commented, that other use may be additional spending on consumer goods which is NOT such a good idea. Also, at least for now, the % rate is below 0 (after inflation adjustment) so leaving it in a money market is a real loser. As you said, it depends on the situation. But unless there is some clear and demonstrable BUSINESS reason, borrowing is not a good idea. Further, as you know, the vendor has to pay a % of the sale (on a credit card) to the card processor. This can vary but often runs 1%, 2%, 3%. If you are dealing with a small business, and the owner is paying a larger % fee to the card company, he would certainly come out ahead splitting the cost with you, thus lowering your cost for paying cash.

I sure tryed that with a # of banks and they basically said thanks for stopping by. 

You must have been dealing with someone lower down on the food chain. We were paying 30% down on a house. Bank wanted too much information. We refused and said, in effect, screw you. If you don't want our % payments we'll scrape up the money and pay cash. When they realized we were going to do that, they all of a sudden decided they had enough information and made the loan. Seems like that should work anywhere if you are talking to someone who can actually make decisions. (The flunky in the paper pushing department isn't likely to "bend the rules" because it makes good business sense).

My point overall was simply that for many, many people they have substituted relatively annonymous cash purchases for the use of borrowing in their day to day purchases without real understanding what's actually going on - which is both more expensive and can lead to debt problems. I recall a private tour of the FED some while ago (one of my customers worked there). Most people have no idea of what's coming. But the best comment I ever heard on the issue of debt is "When you borrow, you are mortgaging your future." Most people today, regardless of how well or poorly they live, are nothing more than indentured servants, laboring away on a treadmill through life paying off past consumer purchases. No thanks.

JEH

Libertine · Jul 13, 2003

Dahammer:

Believe me, they are not after you..................................yet. 

They're not after me either. Glad you added the "yet" though. Hopefully I'll be dead before things get too bad. In the mean time I'll keep my head down and stay out of trouble.

You may not know this, but there are very few restrictions on a credit reporting agency giving out your information. Basically it is given to anyone that pays the fee AND has a bonfide reason. Your permission IS NOT required. 

The operative word is "bonifide." And anyone (mainly big operators) would be well advised to have permission. If you come to me and enter into a time payment contract I can pull your report. As far as those who question what could be done with that info, well, I'm not going into that. There is no way that I would pull a report on someone for anything other than a legally permissable reason, WITH the individual's consent, actual or implied. Your vulnerability to disgruntled consumers is just not worth it. Those who have been talking about how easy it is may be right, or not, but they are ignoring their risks.

et al

Someone mentioned "just" having SS #. Obviously, my comment was based on the premise that you would have the persons name and address. A SS #, by itself, isn't worth much.

JEH