best heating system

farmerpsv · Jul 19, 2004

Once again I plumb the depths of knowledge at tractorbynet. am going to build a house and am considering all the heating alternatives. have been looking seriously at radient under floor heat. my wife is asthmatic and figure it would be better than blowing hot air and dust around. am concerned about the off gassing that would occur from heating osb or plywood with glue, finishes on wood floors. is this nuts? not a real issue? then i consider ratiator heat, which i know nothing about. would like to be able to incorporate an outdoor wood furnace/boiler. anyway, what's your input? what is your ideal heating system?
thanks,
paul

ghitch75 · Jul 19, 2004

if i was building a new home i would go with floor radiant heat with a outdoor wood boiler and a gas boiler backup...let me know if you need any help...i'm a outdoor wood boiler dealer and been in HVAC for over 20 years and as far as the glue gases coming out the temp is not that high to release them..shoot me an email to ghitch75@hotmail.com for more info

MikePA · Jul 19, 2004

...am concerned about the off gassing that would occur from heating osb or plywood with glue, finishes on wood floors. is this nuts? not a real issue? 
We have some HVAC TBNers that can answer authoritatively, but the water in the tubing does not get hot enough to do this.

If I was building a new home, I'd go underfloor radient.

DAP · Jul 19, 2004

I agree with mike, but my oil fired steam sure is nice though.

Birdhunter1 · Jul 19, 2004

Another system you may look at is geothermal. I use to install and servicec them and geothermal is an awesome heat source, plus around here many of the electric co-ops will offer rebates if you install them. The initial cost is higher but I would look into it, I will be when I decide to build soon. If you talk to a good contractor he should be able to help you get a rough estiamte of what the estimated annual costs would be if you went gas/geo or electric. Obviously wood would be free but you have to have a large supply. If you can't find a contractor who could provide you with this info check with your power company and they may be able to help you. And it will put out enough heat to do what you are needing to do.

DaveNay · Jul 19, 2004

( Another system you may look at is geothermal. I use to install and servicec them and geothermal is an awesome heat source, plus around here many of the electric co-ops will offer rebates if you install them.)

What about northern IL? Will geothermal work around here too? Do you just put it deeper?

Dave

MicroPilot · Jul 19, 2004

On my geo system they drilled 2 vertical holes 200' deep x 8 inches wide.

Yankee · Jul 19, 2004

I like forced hot water systems using an oil burner. Very clean, should cause your wife no problems, and is easily maintained. These are conventional systems with easy parts availability and lots of servicepeople available. My concern with radiant floor systems is dealing with tube deterioration, deposits, etc. Also note that some people are reported to find radiant floors uncomfortable. It inverts the normal expectation of having things cooler lower down and warmer around your upper body.

Given the way the world is going, I'd prefer to super-insulate and rely primarily on a passive solar approach, plus have a back-up solution or two in-hand. I insulated my new house with polyurethane spray-in insulation. I've got R19 in the walls, and R30 in the ceiling, and virtually no air leakage (i.e., almost, but not quite super-insulated). Didn't go solar, though - it was a spec house and I was too late in the process for that.

_RaT_ · Jul 19, 2004

Yankee, I am also in the process of designing a new home. I am certified by Nudura to do their insulated block. The ICF is so incredibly, unbelieveably superior that I have no doubts it will someday displace stick frame. R values are an interesting thing. The way in which they are derived is interesting and a rude awakeining as to what they really are. Don't get me wrong, todays homes and insulation are far superior to what they were, but wait until you hear about what ICF can do. I have done wood frame ince 1972. Never have I been more excited aboout a new way of building as with ICF. The Nudura product is by far the simplest system available. The radiant floor system is superb and if the figures work out, plan to use it. Electricity in much of California is far to expensive to be considered as a means to heat, geothermal or not. Cooling is where I would receive a big bonus in ICF's benefits. Rat...

SPIKER · Jul 19, 2004

Hi Guys:

I have been working on installing a in-floor radiant heat for the barn I'm building. and have tons of links I can post or send you. I bought my floor tubing already, (this is PEX-AL-PEX) and is about the best tube for the floor , (below copper but installing copper can be a major pain, as well as corrosion and leaks.) I got it from https://www.farmtekcatalog.com/
they also have tons of other good stuff too. here are more infloor links ans boiler links

http://www.concretenetwork.com/concrete/radiantfloorheating/index.html

http://www.infloor.com/

http://www.durapex.com/home.asp

http://www.insultarp.com/

http://www.misterpex.com/book.htm

http://www.wattsradiant.com/

http://www.wattsradiant.com/

http://www.stadlerviega.com/

btu calc
http://hearth.com/calc/roomcalc.html

ok now most any of them give lots of info. I got about 20 different packages price info in the mail, some will do load calc for you too. need to know thos things to know how much HEAT you will need. only PROPERWAY to get the stuff the right size for you;re application...

if you need any more info let me know and I'll try and help

Mark M

rockinmywaypa · Jul 19, 2004

I also have an oil fired heater feeding an exchanger inside an old gutted out electric forced air system. Also have a small airtight woodstove. As time passes its getting a lot harder to look forward to the annual cutting of wood so I've been considering a corn burning boiler to connect up to the hot water system. Then all i'd have to do is carry out the clunkers.

_RaT_ · Jul 19, 2004

Spiker, thanks for all the links. It's really kind of an exciting time in home construction. The old "de facto" systems are really getting a run for their money. The fella that taught us the Nudura ICF class mentioned how oil fired boilers are really popular in Canada. The extreme there is obviously the cold winters where I am on the other end. The end result though is less cost to operate all the way around. Out here in my neck of the woods, heating a swimming pool via solar is absolutely the way to go. I cannot believe how well it works.

Kevin37 · Jul 19, 2004

ghitch75

I plan on breaking ground before the end of the year on my "final" house and was planning on researching wood boilers with gas back-up. I'll be wanting to heat multiple buildings. I would love some info and knowledge! reply here or send a PM.

Kevin

ps-you should put in your profile at least what part of the country you live! It helps others to relate to your replies better!

ghitch75 · Jul 20, 2004

we have hooked up multiple buildings to one boiler..one job we hooked up a house with 2 furnaces,water heater,spa,blower coil and 2 out buildings with floor radiant..i would be glad to help you any way i can.....

farmerpsv · Jul 20, 2004

Wow, thanks everyone for the input.
I have to agree that the well built/insulated home is the first step. I'm in Virginia, so climate is moderate. I've looked at so many options my head is spinning. from straw bale, SIPS, conventional stick, panelized. am looking at metal right now, i like the 8" walls. now rat throws out ICF (sigh, thanks rat). so back to the heating system. i suppose my concern over offgassing is only part of the equation. i'm not all that concerned, of course i don't have asthma either /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif. still, glue is used in so much anymore, like gluing the sub floor, most of the good glues have formaldahyde. i also am a bit concerned with the heating and cooling of the wood floor and the resulting cupping and warping it may cause. my understanding is the tubing runs at 125 to 130 degrees, the floor gets maybe 80? i've heard you cant use just any wood floor with radient. also, would seem better to use a floating floor, as oppossed to glue down or nail down. when i install air conditioning, i'll probably have a heat pump as well since it dosnt add much to the cost and heat pumps work pretty well where i'm at, would be an auxillary heat system. i do like the idea of being able to thwart the electric bills by throwing wood in an outside boiler or burning corn or bio diesel. so many choices, so little time. hope i dont die before i can decide.
paul

Yankee · Jul 20, 2004

"ICF is so incredibly, unbelieveably superior that I have no doubts it will someday displace stick frame. "

Well, who knows? I've looked into it a bit, just enough to say that I'm uninterested. That's no reflection on how it can perform, just that my interests lie in other directions (sustainable practices, including timber-frame, straw bale, etc.). My recent use of poly doesn't fit with that, but again, it was a spec house and provided me the best scenario given the state of the construction when I bought.

"R values are an interesting thing. The way in which they are derived is interesting and a rude awakeining as to what they really are. "

You're 100% correct! Depending on the material, vapor barrier and ambient conditions, etc., R-values can decrease significantly as the temperature drops - just when you need it most! I chose SIP because it doesn't lose R-value, doesn't deteriorate or shift position, provides structural stiffening, which I wanted because the builder uses masonite sheathing, and because it provides the very best draft sealing (which is where you lose most of your heat).

"The radiant floor system is superb and if the figures work out, plan to use it. "

I'm one of those that finds radiant systems very uncomfortable. I've worked in buildings with both radiant ceilings and radiant floors. I don't like either.

slowzuki · Jul 20, 2004

I don't know if I would use radiant if not on a slab... I'll let others discuss.

We are putting in-slab radiant in our shop /apartment we are building. We are heating with a small wood boiler with electric backup. The other heating is passive solar. The roof is going to be SIPS and the walls we haven't decided yet.

Our house is going to be geothermal heated slab with wood boiler backup.

Don't use radiant floor heat to save money, many studies have shown it doesn't save $.

Don't use radiant floor heat in a super-insulated house, you can't turn the heat up enough to make the floor warm without overheating the house.

_RaT_ · Jul 20, 2004

"I'm one of those that finds radiant systems very uncomfortable. I've worked in buildings with both radiant ceilings and radiant floors. I don't like either"

Wow, your absolutely the first to say this. Most people love it, others go as far as saying they will never have a home without it again.

Strawbale, interesting idea but just not my cup of tea. Timberframe, expensive, more skill to build, still uses a lot of "unsustainable" material as you say.

I know there is plenty of room for debate. Lets just say that after 32 years of framing, I am quite dissatisfied with the quality of lumber and the relative inefficiency of todays homes when compared to the new alternatives. Rat...

farmerpsv · Jul 20, 2004

Yankee,
SIPS is intriguing. if you dont mind my asking, how did it cost out? do you know what a 4x10 panel would cost? the house i want to build has 10' ceilings up and down. is the floor and roof sips too? i know there are chanels for wiring, how do you access them? how do you cut in doors and windows? i see you use a "hot knife", but does the osb have to be cut conventionally first?
paul

_RaT_ · Jul 20, 2004

"I don't know if I would use radiant if not on a slab... I'll let others discuss"

Radiant is easy to use on raised floors. The best way in my opinion is to put it down and place lightweight concrete over it. Thats the way it's done out here on subfloors.

SIPS is a great way to insulate, smart move. You will be "super insulating" your home.

I have heard much different opinions about the energy efficiency of radiant floor systems. With new boilers being used for all water heating as well as new electronics to control the many zones that can be incorporated, it seems to be quite favorable in comfort and efficiency. An airtight house requires an air exchange system, to design a house intentionally not airtight and well insulated would seem defeating. The initial cost of radiant is what has me wondering if it's within reach for us to do. It does require a second set of conditioning if you also need to cool your home. Lots of great ideas out there for us to choose from, most of them neither right or wrong, but certainly energy saving over the designs of just a decade ago.