backhoe, trencher, renting, buying...

[Freds]

Hi guys.
I've read through some of the threads here and it looks like a backhoe could be a worthwhile investment for my tractor, but here's the deal...

I've got some drainage to put in. It's a very soft area, so soft that the rental place sent me home when I went to pick up a trencher, saying the machine would not be able to get enough traction if there was any standing water. This left me looking at hoes and trenchers on the web for a couple weeks (lol).
In the meantime I got a DR catalog in the mail that shows this nifty towable backoe for $5400. Lighter might be good, and maybe I could get it into areas with my wheeler that I couldn't with a tractor hoe. It might be bad, too.... I just don't know yet. And searching DR backhoe didn't come up with anything here, so nothing to go buy on how it works in the real world.

Enter the learning curve of using a hoe. I figure I can drop the trencher down to depth and let it do its thing. How easy is it really to dig a nice, flat trench with a backhoe? Any type of hoe. If I was thinking of a hoe to dig a bunch of holes the choice would be easier, but I don't want to spend 8 hours digging a rough trench and 16 hours trying to get it flat and level with a shovel...

Renting a trencher will cost 200/day and I should be done in a day easy, provided that ground dries out. My neighbor, who also has some drainage to put in, said that a friend of his told him he could dig 150' of trench in 2 hrs at a cost of 45/hr. That's pretty good, provided it's a nice trench, and I'll figure it would be from someone used to doing this type of work.

And something is telling me I would need to go with a 3ph hoe because I did not get the heavy duty bucket on my bota, which I have read horror stories about. Having a hoe would be nice, but I'm already going to be watching my 2600 snowblower set all summer, I don't need another high dollar implement (or that DR one) collecting dust and cobwebs, too.

Does anyone one to assemble my thoughts here and give me some sound advice? I'm still leaning towards waiting and renting that trencher, but the little boy in me is saying buy a hoe (lol).

Thanks

 

[Wis Bang]

My father ran equipment for a living. Watching him and other good operators and you will see that they can make the boom and diper move while leaving the bottom of the bucket flat. From what I've seen, any time you pull back on two controls the hydraulic action stops so when you are pulling back on the dipper and want to adust the boom pulling back on the boom control and then releasing the dipper control lets the boom move. Repeating this action allows one to smoothly raise the boom & pull the dipper back making the bucket avance toward the machine w/ the cutting edge paralell to the botom.

Easier said than done and I found that it was easier in a large excavator [225 CAT] cause you could open a valve to slow the reaction of the hydraulics untill one got familiar w/ the process.

I always remember dad w/ the dipper & boom controls back more than in the released position to control the movement of the bucket...

even if you hack up the bottom, the machine will smooth it out much easier than using a shovel. Safety First! Stay out of the trench and let the machine do the work. Trench collapse is a major killer of construction laborers...

 

[Freds]

Hey. Thanks for replying, Wis. I just came back to rephase things so it was easier to understand

So let me put it this way;
You have 500' of 4" drain tile to put it on ground that already has a gentle grade in the direction you want to run.
You have a 4WD trencher.
You have a tractor with a hoe and 12" bucket.
Which one would you grab to do the job?

Would it make a difference if the ground is saturated and you sink in when you even walk on it?

Thanks.

Hey Wis, is that how you dig a level trench? If you can keep the bucket level as you drag it back, the trench will be the same depth?

 

[ScottK]

Do you have Home Depot rentals near you? You can get a tracked trenching machine (36" depth) for $100 for 4 hours or $150 for 24 hours. Just used one myself.

 

[Freds]

They do? Boy, that would be great, Scott. I'll check into it.
I was looking at those Cormidi units on the web, built in Italy, but I they didn't seem very popular un our country. Those things are great. They are tracked, walk behind dumpers that you can get loaders for and also trenchers. They even come in diesel. The perfect machine for working in soft area, IMO. Do a search on cormidi and you should bump into them.

One of my concerns with the ground being so soft is the trench filling in due to water seepage. I was thinking that would be less of a problem with a 12" bucket trench as opposed to a narrow trench.... I've never trenched before and was hoping for some advice from here, but maybe I'm in unchartered territory with my questions.

I did find out yesterday that they make subframe kits for my bota, so the smaller loader is not a concern anymore.

 

[2manyrocks]

I would not buy any towable backhoe because the onsite mobility is so limited compared to a tractor mounted unit and because the resale would be limited, in my opinion.

When I looked into buying a backhoe for my 22 hp yanmar, the dealer selling the backhoe told me that he had seen backhoes break the rear ends of smaller tractors. I like my tractor and decided not to go that route.

I ended up buying a used Terramite thinking I could at least get most of my money back if I decided to sell it. But if I had to trench 450', I'd be leaning towards renting a trencher just on account of the speed.

 

[Wis Bang]

A tracked trencher will give you the best traction in mud but will it be wide enough? How deep do you need to be?

Check out a rental center for a mini excavator on tracks if you need to go deeper/wider as you will have a hard time laying 4" draintile in a 3" wide trench...

Even a tracked skid steer w/ mini-hoe shouldn't be bad for a 1/2 day or daily rental.

You could use your FEL to remove a foot or so [step trench] to make a trencher sit lower for added depth work some of the mud aside & even plow out a drainage path to get rid of some surface water b/4 you rent the machine.

A rookie on a backhoe will take longer than a trencher to dig 450' & they can be more forgiving, I knew a guy who ran a ditch witch installing golf course irrigation lines. Once he got it going OK he would go sit in the shade and just watch it walk across the fairway.

 

[ScottK]

Compact Power Equipment This is the one I rented at Home Depot this week (although it was painted red for Home Depot). They had a more powerful version as well. Either one goes to 36" deep and digs a 6" wide trench, although mine ended up more like 8-9 inches wide (which was just fine with me) because of all the rocks I had. Also it comes on a trailer with a loader bucket, multiple augers, and some other attachments I didn't use. The bigger version has more under carriage clearance and is $199 for 24 hours. If you're worried about sinking, then I guess get the bigger one. You're not going to sink much with tracks though. If your soil doesn't drain then you probably will have water in your trenches. That doesn't really matter though. Just drop in your drains and away it will go. 1-866-HD-RENTAL for more info.

 

[Freds]

The trencher I checked out is supposed to trench wide enough for 4" tile. I can only hope, because I bought the tile already.

The HD by me does not rent any equipment. Figures.

The guy at the rental place suggested a mini excavator and also said it would not be as fast as a trencher. I think I'm leaning towards the trencher because it will do the least damage to this soft area and pretty much runs itself. Of course, then I'll probably tear the ground up getting my tractor close with the gravel...

Can't do anything with it raining every week. That area is still pretty saturated.

Of course, in the back of my mind I'm still trying to justify the price of a backhoe (lol).

Thanks for the additional input guys.

 

[Redneck in training]

I just bought this one for $2100. It is homemade from plans I suppose. Don't have it yet home so I can't tell you how it works. I bought it primarily to put in about 1200 ft of irrigation ditch to increase watershed of my pond. I will report how it works when I get it home sometimes by the end of April.

 

[Freds]

That's pretty nice Redneck. And less than half the price of the DR, plus hydraulic legs. That's very nice. I want one (lol). Seriously, if someone by me made those, I'd have one in a heartbeat.

Forgot to add above; Without stringing a line and measuring, I think I'll be lucky if I can get 18" deep. I'm running the drainage into a ditch, so I can't get too low or I will have to run uphill to stub it out of the ground.

 

[MarkV]

Personally I would wait for the ground to dry out and rent the trencher. If you try the trencher or a backhoe in ground that sounds as wet as yours it will just make a mess. You may want to look into the "soil sock" that you can slip over the drain pipe to prevent sediment from clogging the pipe. It will often eliminate the need for gravel and is even used on some types of septic drain fields without gravel.

MarkV

 

[Redneck in training]

Here is one.
towable back hoe

 

[Freds]

It's looking more and more like that, Mark. This started out as an end of winter project, while the ground was still pretty much frozen, but then two weeks of rain came. And while I know it will get drier, it always stays spongey. My neighbor has a similar area he's doing and the way he looks at it is, the ground can be repaired, I just want the water out of here... I think we're waiting on each other to see who will make the first move (lol). I'm one step ahead, as I already have the tile, but we both have our gravel piles sitting in the driveway.
And I looked into the sock. Pretty pricey plus a lot of folks said it would clog with dirt to easy. Like anything, pros and cons.

Redneck, how can you tell where that guy is? I'm not familiar with that kind of site and am not going to just email someone my phone #. No pic or nothing..... weird.

 

[Redneck in training]

It's looking more and more like that, Mark. This started out as an end of winter project, while the ground was still pretty much frozen, but then two weeks of rain came. And while I know it will get drier, it always stays spongey. My neighbor has a similar area he's doing and the way he looks at it is, the ground can be repaired, I just want the water out of here... I think we're waiting on each other to see who will make the first move (lol). I'm one step ahead, as I already have the tile, but we both have our gravel piles sitting in the driveway.
And I looked into the sock. Pretty pricey plus a lot of folks said it would clog with dirt to easy. Like anything, pros and cons.

Redneck, how can you tell where that guy is? I'm not familiar with that kind of site and am not going to just email someone my phone #. No pic or nothing..... weird.

He is in Hudson Valey area. The URL says that. But I didn't read his add right. He is not selling but looking to buy one. There was one very nice self propeled factory made for sale on ebay last week. Sold for $4180. I called the factory and they were asking $20000 for new one. They also told me that they have several used for sale. Here is the link to the factory site.
Gofor digger towable backhoes

 

[Freds]

Hey, those are pretty neat.
Thanks for the link.

 

[tallyho8]

It might be too wet for you to use a Ditch Witch but they sure are nice to use if it dries up some. I just rented one from Home Depot to dig a trench 4" wide, 2' deep and 700' long for some pipe. With tax and insurance it was $175 for 24 hours and it took me 4 hours.

I just started it up, set the depth, aimed it in the right direction, tied the bail to the handlebars and let it go. It went along by itself digging a perfect trench and I followed right behind it priming and glueing the pvc pipe and putting it in the trench. It dug the trench faster than I could install the pipe in 10' sections.

It took longer to fill the trench than to dig it! The good part about digging a narrow trench that is just wide enough for the pipe is the stability of the trench. I always have dumptruck loads of sand driving over where I put the pipe and they can not crush the pipe if the trench is only 4" wide but if you dig a wide trench and fill it, the dirt won't be compacted and trucks can crush your pipe.

 

[Freds]

Thanks tallyho. Good points.

 

[Redneck in training]

Hey, those are pretty neat.
Thanks for the link.

I think the biggest drawback is their low weight while trying to break in the ground. But once you get down deep the weight doesn't matter much I think. I will post my experience after I get some work done with my machine. It will always beat a shovel I suppose.

 

[Freds]

Well just to update, I bought a backhoe today.
It'll be nice always having one always available without having the constrictions of renting. At least that's what I keep telling myself